Monsanto

[ThunderChunky]

To be fair, from the folks I've worked with who've had to deal with Monsanto (I worked on an ag research farm), it isn't the most pleasant company to work with. Their products are good, but their customer service ain't quite up to par. And really that's just a symptom of a quasi-monopoly; the game is set up against newcomers legally and financially.

That could be a valid reason to hate them, but the vast majority of people have never had to deal with monsanto directly. Bad customer service does not explain why monsanto is one of the most hated companies in america.

Yeah, and what about conservatives like me? What makes you think Monsanto is only hated by woo loving liberals? Oh and BTW, please tell me when exactly the Republicans went from being a champion of business, to a champion of big business? Subtle difference, but quite profound in real world policy. And when did it become conservative to put oppressive regulations preventing or reducing small business start up in favor of the industrial giants status quo? Maybe when conservative doesn't mean more liberal than the old northern democrat's business policies?

Conservatives seem to get excited by their own bogeymen like Benghazi, Solyndra, and Al Gore. Certainly many conservatives hate monsanto, they have to for it to be so hated. I imagine most of these people are woos though, like the conservative Joel Salatine who thinks GMOs are causing autism.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

I imagine most of these people are woos though, like the conservative Joel Salatine who thinks GMOs are causing autism.

What difference does it make? No one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism. Diet may be a contributing factor, or not. No one really knows for sure. Theories abound.

He knows business. He runs his farm like a business. He doesn't run it like some kind of hippy commune.

 

[Mitchell314]

Conservatives seem to get excited by their own bogeymen like Benghazi, Solyndra, and Al Gore. Certainly many conservatives hate monsanto, they have to for it to be so hated. I imagine most of these people are woos though, like the conservative Joel Salatine who thinks GMOs are causing autism.

IME anti-GMO doesn't follow any party lines, especially in the south. Don't forget that the [life] sciences are heavily dominated by non-conservatives, and they are much more likely to be GMO friendly. Especially in the genetics-related fields.

No one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism

Broadening the definition and increasing awareness certainly plays a major role.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It's quite interesting though how monsanto has become such a lightening rod for the woos on the left. So much so that even intelligent liberals have succumb to the woo and will say things like "I supports GMOs, but i hate monsanto." Invariably you find out these people are misinformed and believe such nonsense as monsanto suing unknowing farmers after monsanto genes accidentally pollinate their fields. When their errors are pointed out, it's usually met with either flat denial or "well... I still hate monsanto."

Exactly.

I've had idiot hippies try to tell me that Monsanto "forces" them to buy their seeds every year.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That could be a valid reason to hate them, but the vast majority of people have never had to deal with monsanto directly. Bad customer service does not explain why monsanto is one of the most hated companies in america.

I've also had idiot hippies tell me that farmers hate Monsanto, but can't seem to explain how they sell so many seeds....to farmers.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What difference does it make? No one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism.

Wow. Are you sure about that?

 

[ThunderChunky]

IME anti-GMO doesn't follow any party lines, especially in the south. Don't forget that the [life] sciences are heavily dominated by non-conservatives, and they are much more likely to be GMO friendly. Especially in the genetics-related fields.

I agree that the hate spans the idealogical spectrum, but it's not the lightning rod for conservatives that it is for liberals. Liberals just casually throw out Monsanto, like people on fox news throw out Benghazi. Indeed life science people are more GMO friendly, but that doesn't mean they don't hate monsanto. They hate monsanto for false allegations of IP abuse or causing suicides among indian farmers. Life science people are the "intelligent liberals" that I was talking about.

What difference does it make? No one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism. Diet may be a contributing factor, or not. No one really knows for sure. Theories abound.

He knows business. He runs his farm like a business. He doesn't run it like some kind of hippy commune.

He's a conservative, he's a full blown woo, and he hates monsanto. The GMO-autism junk is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to him and woo. He does appear to be a good businessman and farmer, but that seems even less relevant to this discussion. I only brought him up because you mentioned conservative monsanto haters. It does appear he gets his propaganda from the same place that liberals tend to get it (organic/natural/anti-gmo blogs).

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Wow. Are you sure about that?

Sure about what? Its irrelevancy to the topic? Or sure that no one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism?

The first yes. I am sure. The second no. I am not a research physician. Perhaps you can enlighten me on why the increase in autism. While you are at it please explain the dramatic increase in colon cancer under 50?[1] The dramatic increase in asthma and other allergies?[2] Or any other diseases of civilization you can think of. But please do it on another thread. This is the business forum. And Salatin is no hippy tree hugging communist. He is a businessman supplying a demand in the market place for healthy high quality food. Pretty much all farmers have to be tough businessmen, or else the farm would be on the auction block. You wonder why conventional farmers buy so much Monsanto products? They have no choice. It's that or the auction. But believe me, there is a whole lot of festering resentment.

 

[Mitchell314]

I agree that the hate spans the idealogical spectrum, but it's not the lightning rod for conservatives that it is for liberals. Liberals just casually throw out Monsanto, like people on fox news throw out Benghazi. Indeed life science people are more GMO friendly, but that doesn't mean they don't hate monsanto. They hate monsanto for false allegations of IP abuse or causing suicides among indian farmers. Life science people are the "intelligent liberals" that I was talking about.

Do you actually know any real scientists? Because those are some very specific claims.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sure about what? Its irrelevancy to the topic? Or sure that no one really knows what is causing the huge increase in autism?

Remember, you're posting on a skeptics forum. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-increase-in-autism-diagnoses-two-hypotheses/

And Salatin is no hippy tree hugging communist. He is a businessman supplying a demand in the market place for healthy high quality food. Pretty much all farmers have to be tough businessmen, or else the farm would be on the auction block. You wonder why conventional farmers buy so much Monsanto products? They have no choice. It's that or the auction. But believe me, there is a whole lot of festering resentment.

You've never met a farmer, have you?

The first yes. I am sure. The second no. I am not a research physician. Perhaps you can enlighten me on why the increase in autism. While you are at it please explain the dramatic increase in colon cancer under 50?[1] The dramatic increase in asthma and other allergies?[2] Or any other diseases of civilization you can think of. But please do it on another thread. This is the business forum.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

I don't know what your problem is scrut. But I would appreciate it if you were not so insulting.

 

[Mitchell314]

I've also had idiot hippies tell me that farmers hate Monsanto, but can't seem to explain how they sell so many seeds....to farmers.

s/Monsanto/Comcast/

 

[ThunderChunky]

Do you actually know any real scientists? Because those are some very specific claims.

Yes, many. To be clear, I wasn't claiming these people threw monsanto out like benghazi, but that they often took the line of "gmos are good, but monsanto is bad." Many also believe in acupuncture and chiropracty. Being a scientist does not make you a skeptic or immune to woo/misinformation.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

You are wrong about farmers. The vast majority are simply waiting for a proven alternative. And by proven I mean both proven scientifically and a proven business model and a proven transition model.

Most farmers have too much at stake and too thin a profit margin to go around experimenting, even if they believe it might work and might be even more profitable in the end. This is what I mean by they have no choice.

The second you leave the conventional model you are no longer covered by GAP regulations. That means no subsidised crop insurance, or if you can get it at all, the highest rates. It might also mean no operating expense loans.

Not only that, but they are probably operating on land that has been beat to death for 50+ years. It takes at least 3-5 years to even begin to start healing that land to a point where it can be productive without the costly inputs from Monsanto, Dow, Bayer etc...

It is a daunting prospect for any farmer. That's why they really have no choice in most cases.

It is almost universal that the farmers who have weaned themselves off that addictive vicious circle almost always were forced off only after the conventional business model with its GAP and BMP guidelines subsidies and regulations failed them. When you are about to loose the farm anyway, then you are free to go down fighting by trying something new. If they get lucky and get past that 3-5 year transition period, they generally do great.

Necessity really is the mother of invention. But the flip side of that is that market and regulatory pressures can also stifle innovation.

This is anecdotal but a great example:

 

[Belgian thought]

Not only that, but they are probably operating on land that has been beat to death for 50+ years. It takes at least 3-5 years to even begin to start healing that land to a point where it can be productive without the costly inputs from Monsanto, Dow, Bayer etc...

This asks many questions...

 

[Skeletor]

Monsanto has aired a few TV commercials, wanting people to be part of "The Conversation." I don't watch a lot of TV, and ended up finding out about it by reading The Woo Babe...I mean Food Babe's Facebook page. Here's a couple examples:



People on the anti-GMO side are absolutely losing their minds over these commercials.

This website...I almost thought it was a parody site like The Onion.

Monsanto Targeting Children In New Feel-Good Campaign About Themselves

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Monsanto has aired a few TV commercials, wanting people to be part of "The Conversation."

Been going on for years on the agricultural related channels.

 

[WildCat]

This website...I almost thought it was a parody site like The Onion.

Poe's Law.

 

[cosmicaug]

Interesting article at http://grist.org/food/even-this-organic-advocate-thinks-african-farmers-need-herbicide/:

The paper is by Don Lotter, a strong critic of genetic engineering with a PhD in agroecology who teaches conservation agriculture at St. John’s University of Tanzania. It’s a nuanced and valuable piece from someone driven by the facts on the ground rather than by ideology.

The problem, Lotter wrote, cannot be pinned on lack of education alone:

[A]n organic version of CA [conservation ag] (no herbicide or synthetic fertilizers) has failed to be adopted by the majority of African farmers subject to years of promotion and trials … The most recent report from Tanzania showed only 13 percent of targeted farmers adopting the practice after several years of promotion.

This squares with something I learned from talking with Keira Butler about 4-H in Ghana. 4-H teaches kids all kinds of exciting agroecological techniques, but the adults don’t use those techniques — they use chemicals. I asked:

Is that because they don’t have access to those natural techniques, or they are benighted? Or is it because they are like, this just doesn’t work, if I want to make a decent living?

A. They are like, this just doesn’t work.

It’s simply more time- and cost-effective to use herbicide, for example, she said.

Using a herbicide allows farmers to vastly reduce the amount they plow. This allows the root-structures to remain in the ground, holding the soil and preventing erosion. Eventually the plant residues rot, turning into organic matter, which increases the fertility and water-holding capacity of the fields.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Interesting article at http://grist.org/food/even-this-organic-advocate-thinks-african-farmers-need-herbicide/:

Your whole argument assumes that a no till system requires herbicides. It doesn't. Implied is that it is also more profitable, it isn't.

So sure, teach them antiquated systems and they can easily see through it and will always opt for the easier chemicals. But teach them more modern organic systems and you just might have a different result.