• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

LDS II: The Mormons

Your claim that we have to know everything in order to know anything is a gigantic straw man riding a straw horse.

You twist my meaning. If you're going to insist that the BoM is wrong because it includes what SV (and others) is fond of calling anachronisms, then you should be prepared to know—with certitude—that, at a minimum, there is nothing more to learn re. said anachronisms. Hence, it's a settled matter.
Archaeologists working at various sites in the PC Americas need not look for any evidence of steel or barley or horse fossils, etc., because it does not exist.
 
My point was that if the LDS Church can be characterized as engaging in superstition, why are the Church and its doctrine worthy of discussion? Why spend time on it? Do you spend time discussing Satanism?

Why do you spend so much time avoidiung answering questions about it?

When (what dates) are the exciting stories in the BoM to be supposed to have happened?

Where in the americas are the exciting stories in the BoM to be supposed to have happened?

Where was the fabulous civilization, that "covered the land" for "thousands of years" located?

Where does the superstition that "as 'god' was, man is; as 'god' is, man can become" come from?
 
You twist my meaning. If you're going to insist that the BoM is wrong because it includes what SV (and others) is fond of calling anachronisms, then you should be prepared to know—with certitude—that, at a minimum, there is nothing more to learn re. said anachronisms. Hence, it's a settled matter.
Archaeologists working at various sites in the PC Americas need not look for any evidence of steel or barley or horse fossils, etc., because it does not exist.

You continue in your falsehood.

Why not simply post links to all of the evidence that points to a fabulous civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years", and featured the horse, and bovine kine, and compasses, and autochtonous steelmaking, and cultivation of european grains, and minted coinage...?

If you have no such evidence,and no of no such evidence, your pose that pointing out that there is no such evidence is tantamount to claiming to "know everything there is to know" about the pre-colombian americas exhausts your deontological presumption of integrity.

At this point, there is no such evidence. (You may counter this fact by providing evidence.)

At this point, there is a wealth of evidence to the contrary.
 
This is remarkably dishonest, even for you. Especially since you have played this card before, even recently,and had the fundamental dishonesty of the gambit pointed out to you.

Do yourself, and the shards of your pretensions to being taken seriously, a favor; read what I have written. Read my actual statements, which I have been making for nearly two years.

<snip>

The problem is that you move from repeated statements re. "no evidence" to a conclusion that is unavoidable: the BoM is a fraud.

It really isn't all that complicated, is it?
 
You continue in your falsehood.

Why not simply post links to all of the evidence that points to a fabulous civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years", and featured the horse, and bovine kine, and compasses, and autochtonous steelmaking, and cultivation of european grains, and minted coinage...?

Why, yes, what I posted wasn't sufficient.

If you have no such evidence,and no of no such evidence, your pose that pointing out that there is no such evidence is tantamount to claiming to "know everything there is to know" about the pre-colombian americas exhausts your deontological presumption of integrity.

You are the one who, by inference, claims to know everything there is to know about the PC Americas, even to the extent of knowing whether or not BoM peoples could possibly have developed a system of minted coinage, or used a bovine knife, or crafted a compass. Backing away from that, are you?






At this point, there is no such evidence. (You may counter this fact by providing evidence.)

At this point, there is a wealth of evidence to the contrary.[/QUOTE]
 
You continue in your falsehood.

Why not simply post links to all of the evidence that points to a fabulous civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years", and featured the horse, and bovine kine, and compasses, and autochtonous steelmaking, and cultivation of european grains, and minted coinage...?

Why, yes, what I posted wasn't sufficient.

If you have no such evidence,and no of no such evidence, your pose that pointing out that there is no such evidence is tantamount to claiming to "know everything there is to know" about the pre-colombian americas exhausts your deontological presumption of integrity.

You are the one who, by inference, claims to know everything there is to know about the PC Americas, even to the extent of knowing whether or not BoM peoples could possibly have developed a system of minted coinage, or used a bovine knife, or crafted a compass. Backing away from that, are you?
 
My point was that if the LDS Church can be characterized as engaging in superstition, why are the Church and its doctrine worthy of discussion? Why spend time on it? Do you spend time discussing Satanism?

I think the main reason that some of us atheists care about religious beliefs is that we clearly see how these ideas, based in ancient myths and superstition, can do great harm to a variety of people. It isn't just the LDS Church that is attempting to insert itself into our secular government, it's the whole idea of some god, defined by thousands of groups of with their agendas, being imposed on non-believers.

Part of the reason that religions and their dogma are worthy of discussion is to demonstrate the abject absurdity and paucity of rational arguments that religious apologists exhibit when it comes to arguing various aspects of their agendas. Readers may observe also how many claims are made, how few challenges are taken up and how seldom questions are answered by representatives of their respective religions. Threads such as this one clearly show how proselytizers operate when confronted by reasoned arguments and how they resort to passive aggressive, dissembling behavior when caught in inconsistencies or faulty logic. That's why we spend time on it.

Why not Satanism? Probably because Satanists aren't running amok trying to impose their beliefs on non-Satanists.
 
I'm forced to conclude, then, that you believe everything about the pre-Columbian Americas has been discovered . . . that there is nothing more to be learned about that era. I raised the question before, but it merits repeating: If we already know everything about the PC Americas, why are numerous digs taking place in the relevant countries? Could it be that, contrary to your insistence, we don't know all there is to know about the PC Americas?

Science has been wrong about important issues in the past, and it's likely they are wrong about some important issues even as you read this. Note:

Scientific Facts That Have Changed Since you were in Grade School
elitedaily.com/life/8-surprising-scientific-facts-changed-since-grade-school

7 Historical Facts That Have Changed Over Time
http://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ss1#safe=active&q=scientific+facts+that+have+changed+over+time

Even Theories Change
(Link doesn't work. Enter "Even Theories Change" into your search engine, which will take you to Berkeley's home page. Then enter "Even Theories Change" in the home page search box.)



As the record shows (I could have posted more links), science is fallible, though given sufficient time, it eventually corrects itself. It's obvious that you are unwilling to grant that time; hence, in that context, it's fair to say your mind is closed. It seems to me your position is anti-science. Despite extensive digs throughout the Americas, you insist there is nothing more to learn about the PC Americas. Why are all those archaeologists wasting their time and their sponsors' resources?

When I look in a stall and don't see a horse I conclude there is no horse in there you are looking in the stall and insisting that we examine every square inch and catalog every part of the stall before you will conclude there is no horse.
 
<snip>

The problem is that you move from repeated statements re. "no evidence" to a conclusion that is unavoidable: the BoM is a fraud.

It really isn't all that complicated, is it?

Again, you argue dishonestly.

The "problem" is that you want there to have been a mighty civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years", NOT because there is actual, practical, physical, non-anecdotal, congruent, fruitful, luminous, testable evidence of any facet of the claims advanced for ir; but because your Big Book O' 'god' Stories, vol. III & III-A advances the claim.

That is not how honest inquiry is done. That is not the way archaeology, or history, or anthropology, or paleontology, or genetics, or linguistics, is done.

To be clear: the demonstrably false history, incorrect geography, abysmal anthropology, and risible biological and technological errors of the BoM are the low-hanging fruit. Even if evidence of a fabulous civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years" and incorporated european wheat and barley (to the point it could be used as the basis of minted coinage), the horse, kine, swine, and steelmaking were to be demonstrated later this afternoon, the BoM would still be a fraudulent work of fiction, of macculate origin and impeachable presentation.

You are free (of course) to believe that you will become a 'god' in the "afterlife" (or whatever other dogma you advance) all you want--you are even, as you have said, free to derive great satisfaction from that belief whether of not is can be objectively demonstrated.. Where you do err is in your insistence that your belief makes its object true.

Nor does your claim give you leave to make dishonest statememnts about my arguments.

Where do you believe the exciting stories of the american bits of the BoM are to be supposed to have taken place? When do you believe they are to be supposed to have happened?
 
Okay, now let's talk about the Book of Abraham. I'd be interested in reading any justification for it not being fraud. The evidence for fraud is both overwhelming and damning.
 
<snip>

The problem is that you move from repeated statements re. "no evidence" to a conclusion that is unavoidable: the BoM is a fraud.

It really isn't all that complicated, is it?

Do you agree that there is no evidence that Jesus was a gay rodeo clown who led his posse of rump riders and is therefore as equally likely as horses in the new world?
 
Do you agree that there is no evidence that Jesus was a gay rodeo clown who led his posse of rump riders and is therefore as equally likely as horses in the new world?

Is that gay rodeo still using blimps?
 
Why, yes, what I posted wasn't sufficient.

You are the one who, by inference, claims to know everything there is to know about the PC Americas, even to the extent of knowing whether or not BoM peoples could possibly have developed a system of minted coinage, or used a bovine knife, or crafted a compass. Backing away from that, are you?

I wonder when you decided that the only recourse left you was to argue dishonestly?

The highlighted is, simply, a lie; a fib; a prevarication; a contrafactual invention in which the truth is not.

As you are aware, I have never advanced such a claim. I have pointed out, over and over, that there is, at this point, no evidence of a pervasive civilization that "covered the land" of the pre-colombian americas for "thousands of years". There is no evidence of the cultivation of european grains, the use of the wheel, the adoption of the horse (with all that does to a culture), the husbanding of kine and swine, or autochthonous steelmongery (or even knowledge of the compass) anywhere at all in the pre-colombian americas.

If you want to dispute that, notice that all you would have to do is present actual evidence.

NB: the Spencer Lake Horse Hoax is not evidence of a pre-colombian horse culture (much less one that "covered the land" for "thousands of years").

NB: the Hohokam "Barley" (where one isolated band of people gleaned H. pusillum at some point in their 400-year occupation of one site) is not evidence of pre-colombian "cultivation" of "barley" so extensive that a civilization that "covered the land" for "thousands of years" could be demonstrated to have based their (as-yet-undemonstrated) minted coinage upon the value of a barleycorn.

And so forth.

I do expect that an honest disputant will stop telling lies about what I have actually said, once it is pointed out that they are, in fact, lies.

<snip of formatting error, wherein you appeared to attributing my words to yourself>
 
There is no evidence of the cultivation of european grains, the use of the wheel, the adoption of the horse ...

Here's something odd: I remember a citation that carts with wheels were found at some point in (Aztec? Mayan?) pre-Columbian artifacts, but that they were toys. Maybe in one of Jared Diamond's books.
 
Last edited:
When I look in a stall and don't see a horse I conclude there is no horse in there you are looking in the stall and insisting that we examine every square inch and catalog every part of the stall before you will conclude there is no horse.

It's necessary to look in the stall more than once. You seem to prefer to rush to judgment.
 
It's necessary to look in the stall more than once. You seem to prefer to rush to judgment.

How many times must I look in an empty stall before I conclude it's empty?

ETA: does looking in an empty stall and concluding it's empty really seem like a rush to judgement?
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom