Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[platonov]

Conspiracy widens further

What the EDFs are is most likely not the issue to them. At a minimum, they know it is something that if revealed will favor the defense and ultimately destroy the prosecution case. Therefore, from their point of view, irrelevant to the case and not to be introduced into evidence.

But but but
this must mean that GB & co are in on the conspiracy !

Myself & Kaosium have long suspected as much.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

But but but
this must mean that GB & co are in on the conspiracy !

Myself & Kaosium have long suspected as much.

Plantonov, It's no longer a question as to who is actually in this conspiracy, but rather, who is not........

 

[Machiavelli]

do you have the expression 'off your rocker' in Italy? Seriously Mach, this is delusional. Get help.

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

 

[MDDVS]

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

Where is the evidence (confirmatory test) proving that the luminol hits are blood?

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Huh?

Senator Cantwell will deconstruct your posts while assessing the advisability of conspiring to disappear an inconvenient constituent.

Say again. Maybe someone can "deconstuct" your farcically pretentious post. Too many long words in a row - a transparent and pathetic attempt to sound profound. Better to let your seething anger out I would say. .

 

[Bill Williams]

The autopsy report, for example, is unequivocably physical evidence and something related to the physical place where the murder was committed, whoever caused the wounds was on the crime scene.

The autopsy report, when crossed with the DNA information and blood stain pattern, unequivocally points to deduce there were multiple perpetrators. So there is unequivocal physical evidence that multiple people took part to the crime, not just Guede alone.

This is complete and utter nonsense.

In fact, the autopsy report is entirely consistent with a sole assailant. The wounds are entirely compatible with being inflicted by (and in reality were logically inflicted by) just one knife - a short, narrow-bladed knife. A knife of exactly the type of profile that was found imprinted in Kercher's blood on the bed sheet......

Amongst other things, this is yet another of many examples of Machiavelli simply making an assertion. He provides NO data to back up this assertion. It is part of his Pro-guilt PR effort.

He is also at cross purposes with what Judge Massei writes in his 2010 report, which people should know is a report justifying a conviction.

Only 1 of the nine experts mentioned by Judge Massei says that multiple attackers is a forensic necessity. 8 of nine say that a single attacker is entirely possible, and one says it is probable.

The real import of "multiple attackers" is that it was found as "judicial truth" at Rudy Guede's fast-track trial, it was a claim uncontested by the prosecution and Rudy's defence, for obvious reasons. This was a trial at which Sollecito and Knox were unrepresented, and the Italian Supreme Court has all-but decided that Knox and Sollecito are those extra assailants, without any evidence to suggest they are - save for this "judicial fact".

For people reading this thread for the first time, keep track of the number of times Machiavelli makes assertions without providing data. That will "unlock" for you his purpose for posting here.

 

[js202]

Say again. Maybe someone can "deconstuct" your farcically pretentious post. Too many long words in a row - a transparent and pathetic attempt to sound profound. Better to let your seething anger out I would say. .

Don't fret it. In any case, your supercilious yammering is not nearly important enough for Senator Cantwell to give a moment of her time.

 

[Bill Williams]

Plantonov, It's no longer a question as to who is actually in this conspiracy, but rather, who is not........

Most assuredly the whole of the Court of Appeals of Perugia is in on this conspiracy, as per Machiavelli's account. President of the Perugian Court of Appeal, De Nunzio, conspired to have Judge Helllmann appointed for the sole reason of acquitting Knox and Sollecito.

Machiavelli even knows the amount in Euros Hellmann was bribed with.

 

[Diocletus]

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

Did you ever come up with that case from anywhere in the world where somebody was convicted on the basis of luminol reactions that were TMB and DNA negative? If you did, I missed it. That would really be an heroic triumph if you could come up with one of those.

 

[Diocletus]

Most assuredly the whole of the Court of Appeals of Perugia is in on this conspiracy, as per Machiavelli's account. President of the Perugian Court of Appeal, De Nunzio, conspired to have Judge Helllmann appointed for the sole reason of acquitting Knox and Sollecito.

Machiavelli even knows the amount in Euros Hellmann was bribed with.

What's the normal number of conspirators in official misconduct wrongful convictions? A handful of cops, rogue prosecutor and crooked judge? That should about do it.

 

[Bill Williams]

do you have the expression 'off your rocker' in Italy? Seriously Mach, this is delusional. Get help.

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

This is what I mean by hitting the reset button.

Here we go again. Machiavelli says that luminol is evidence of blood. Other posters (for the umpteenth time) cite the other evidence which show that even though luminol CAN detect blood, it can detect a whole house of other common household things.... and without the confirmatory tests, luminol proves nothing.

It's like claiming that one watched a baseball game, because they were once in the baseball stadium. Machiavelli is forgetting that one also has to prove that they were in the stadium at the time of the game, which comes from a differing test.

 

[Bill Williams]

Most assuredly the whole of the Court of Appeals of Perugia is in on this conspiracy, as per Machiavelli's account. President of the Perugian Court of Appeal, De Nunzio, conspired to have Judge Helllmann appointed for the sole reason of acquitting Knox and Sollecito.

Machiavelli even knows the amount in Euros Hellmann was bribed with.

What's the normal number of conspirators in official misconduct wrongful convictions? A handful of cops, rogue prosecutor and crooked judge? That should about do it.

The Canadian studies I have read on wrongful convictions talk about how the whole system can catch the "myopia flu".

The Nyki Kish case is case in point. From police to prosecutor to convicting judge, to the court of appeals, the whole thing gets locked into something that can only be called "judicial madness".

In the Kish case, there were four suspects initially, and IMO Kish was perhaps the least likely of those four to have committed this (unknowable) crime. Incredibly, three were let go for what amounts to "lack of evidence".

For some strange reason the system then dumped its remaining load on Kish's head - her only crime, really, was getting cut in the street melee, which no two witnesses described the same way. (Which is typical of a street melee.)

But without getting caught up in that here in this thread, it is amazing to me that the Pro-guilt lobby here raises the case of conspiracy. Machiavelli's whole case is based on a Masonic conspiracy, and his admission there's an internecine war within Italian justice, and it is known in Perugia with Galati and Mignini on one side, and Hellmann and De Nunzio on the other side.

Machiavelli is even naming names. And when that's pointed out to him, he reverts to hitting the reset button on luminol. I wonder why?

 

[anglolawyer]

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

You keep on lobbing that word in as though it magically transforms crap evidence into good evidence. You have succumbed to Galati's garbage, for it is he who started this nonsense. If we are going to combine one piece of ambiguous evidence with other pieces to try to infer a relevant fact then we need to make sure we combine everything of relevance, not just those things that take our fancy. That means including within the 'global evaluation' of which the ISC speaks not only the negative TMB results but also Stefanoni's suppression of those results (itself a separate and indicative circumstance) plus her evidence that if TMB is negative we 'can be sure it's not blood' which AFAIK was uncontradicted evidence by which the Massei court was bound. You have unfortunately swallowed the following nonsense:

In the case under consideration, however, the context is entirely different, since we are certain that a murder occurred in the cottage at 7 Via della Pergola, and we have an area [187] that is extensively *affected *by *a *copious *loss *of *the *victim’s *blood, *and *not *just in the bedroom occupied by the latter. In a context of this sort, and in the presence of specific and localized traces (some of which are actually in the shape of a foot- or shoe-print) highlighted by luminol, asserting that these traces reveal the presence of substances other than blood, such as potatoes, fruit juices or bleach, without, however, providing any concrete proof in point, seems from an objective point of view to be a remarkable exercise in dialectical sophistry rather than trial evidence on which any Judge might base reasoning that would be beyond criticism.

I found this section by searching with the word 'luminol'. Curiously, when I search for these words I get nothing at all:

'presumptive'
'confirmatory'
'TMB'
'tetra'
'tetramethylbenzidine'.

What that means is that Nencini has done what you have done. He has favoured those items of CE which favour the conclusion he wants to reach and ignored those which do not. He has thus not discharged the duty cast upon him by the ISC which, to remind everybody, was:

Using the broadest faculty of evaluation, the remanded judge will have to remedy the flaws in argumentation by conducting a uniform and global analysis of the evidence, through which it will have to be ascertained whether the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as each piece of evidence sums up and integrates with the others in the overall assessment. The outcome of such an organic evaluation will be decisive, not only to demonstrate the presence of the two defendants at the crime scene ... [etc]

As I said the other day, this means taking account of all the evidence. In a 355 page motivation there seems to me plenty of room to accommodate all the evidence in this case yet, manifestly, Nencini has not done so. How can this be? He, obviously, is a cretin. You are not. Not in my opinion. Therefore, especially as you receive daily instruction here, you have less excuse

 

[Bill Williams]

As I said the other day, this means taking account of all the evidence. In a 355 page motivation there seems to me plenty of room to accommodate all the evidence in this case yet, manifestly, Nencini has not done so. How can this be? He, obviously, is a cretin. You are not. Not in my opinion. Therefore, especially as you receive daily instruction here, you have less excuse

There is now an insurmountable gulf between us.

 

[Diocletus]

Speaking of luminol, this motion to preclude filed by a criminal defense lawyer is interesting:

http://archive.13wmaz.com/news/pdf/318MotiontoExcludeLuminol.pdf

And a fascinating postscript:

Superior Court Judge Howard Simms threw out crime-lab blood tests and some police questioning that prosecutors want to use in the murder trial of Stephen McDaniel.

At a hearing on defense motions Thursday, a prosecutor said "we do not know what happened" to cause the death of Lauren Giddings.

The judge threw out questioning of McDaniel made in the hours after Giddings' body was found in a trash bin near their Macon apartment complex on June 30, 2011.

McDaniel and Giddings were neighbors and Mercer Law School classmates.

The judge agreed with defense attorney Franklin Hogue that McDaniel was effectively in custody during the questioning but was not read his Miranda rights to remain silent until the next morning, when he was charged with unrelated burglaries in the apartment complex. He was charged with murder a month later.

The defense played several minutes of video of the police interrogation.

Simms said police statements to McDaniel made clear he was already in custody. One such statement was that his family "is going to come here and cry and kiss you goodbye".

On the excerpt of the video, McDaniel says "I didn't do anything."

The judge also threw out evidence involving the police use of Luminol, a substance used to detect blood. The defense says the Luminol tests done in Giddings' bathroom are only "presumptive."

Thursday, police Sgt. Steve Gatlin testified that investigators saw blood in Giddings' bathtub and took swabs of it. Gatlin worked in the Macon police crime lab at the time.

But Gatlin said crime-lab testing using Luminol did not find any blood in Giddings' bathroom. Hogue said FBI testing confirmed that Giddings' blood was not on the swabs.

Under cross-examination by Assistant District Attorney Nancy Scott Malcor, Gatlin said Luminol can register positive for other substances including fecal matter, metals and cleaning supplies. He said Luminol registered a strong response when applied to Giddings' bathtub and did not when applied in two other bathrooms that day.

Scott Malcor argued that Luminol evidence remained relevant because it registered strongly in Giddings' bathtub and "may very well have reacted with cleaning supplies."

Judge Simms said that argument at trial would create an unfair inference that McDaniel cleaned up after a murder.

 

[Desert Fox]

The luminol evidence of blood is superseded by the TMB negative tests and the (for you) perplexing lack of DNA in some of the hits. As for the bath mat track, it's just not good evidence per se. But the size of Mr Sollecito's big toe rules him out. In Ms Romanelli's room, it is the ignored evidence of a break-in that is telling. No real, common law jurisdiction jury is going to be conned by an Italian prosecutor's or your fanciful nonsense in the light of good science and proper discovery.

I am sorry, I have read of some pretty horrid cases where this does seem to be the case.

 

[Desert Fox]

Say again. Maybe someone can "deconstuct" your farcically pretentious post. Too many long words in a row - a transparent and pathetic attempt to sound profound. Better to let your seething anger out I would say. .

The thing is that Amanda will remain free, giving Italy a black eye over and over again until the reputation of Italy as far as their legal system is in tatters. Might even get to the point where other EU nations will no longer fast track extraditions to Italy.

 

[acbytesla]

But all what you had to say was that luminol stains were not positive to TMB or not enough of them positive to Metrdith's DNA and that you don't trust Stefanoni and forensics, and you don't have absolute certainty that is blood. Those "arguments" are delusion, worse than delusion it's raving. It makes no sense in a rational discourse. The pro-Knoxes arguments are an absolute zero. There isn't a speck of element against the circumstantial evidence of luminol stains.

Delusion? Don't you mean right? TMB negative tests mean they were not blood. All you have are some presumptive tests positive and some presumptive tests negative. Not a single confirmatory test. We can go over this point again and again and again. Science backs up the fact that the Luminol stains were NOT from the murder. PERIOD. It is horribly wrong that one can and should conclude that these stains are the from the murder. Especially in any judicial system that values the concept that any suspect is innocent until proven wrong

 

[platonov]

An agreement of sorts

Delusion? Don't you mean right? TMB negative tests mean they were not blood. All you have are some presumptive tests positive and some presumptive tests negative. Not a single confirmatory test. We can go over this point again and again and again. Science backs up the fact that the Luminol stains were NOT from the murder. PERIOD. It is horribly wrong that one can and should conclude that these stains are the from the murder. Especially in any judicial system that values the concept that any suspect is innocent until proven wrong

HoRseRAdish !

 

[Dopre]

Delusion? Don't you mean right? TMB negative tests mean they were not blood. All you have are some presumptive tests positive and some presumptive tests negative. Not a single confirmatory test. We can go over this point again and again and again. Science backs up the fact that the Luminol stains were NOT from the murder. PERIOD. It is horribly wrong that one can and should conclude that these stains are the from the murder. Especially in any judicial system that values the concept that any suspect is innocent until proven wrong

There will never be acknowledgment of this point by Mac or any of the others who argue the DNA evidence. I feel as though understanding of the science behind this case has never been their objective. They clearly reject anything that contradicts the circumstantial evidence the prosecution deliberately misconstrued or manufactured. Mac will continue to pivot every time he knows a point he has made cannot be reasonably argued. He simply shelves it for another resurrection when another point cannot be reasonably argued.

I have read this forum many times in the past. What I have learned of the points surrounding this case has been invaluable. Unfortunately, I have also learned that there will never be a come to moment for the likes of Mac. The best we can ever hope for is his silence.

Thank you all for the hard work you do. I will continue to read and learn despite the efforts of people who refuse to do likewise.