Barkley Speaks His Mind

[Mumbles]

You either:
- have lived in all black neighborhoods and can personally make this assessment; or
- have a survey of poll that backs up this claim.

-have lived and volunteered in places throughout the Eastern and Southern US, and have never seen such a community.

Yes, I have lived in, and mentored in, "all black neighborhoods" (although such communities are also rare. Even in the 80s, we had the few white people who lived there). But I've been in black neighborhoods throughout the East Coast, and the South. And I've never seen it, even in west B'More, where they filmed The Wire. And I've known other people, who do similar work, or are far more invested.

I won't even say that such neighborhoods don't exist. I'm sure they do, just as they exist for all other races. I'm saying they aren't the norm. Barkley is basically claiming that it's *normal* for black people to look for "street cred", to admire "idiots". That's false.

 

[Mumbles]

You were saying that bus depots were built in black neighborhoods to poison them or something, and posted a link that blathered about "environmental justice". Remember when you said " Obviously, doing things like concentrating bus depots in black neighborhoods,"

The neighborhood you mentioned by name wasn't black when the industries, and presumably bus depots, were built there.

Are you now walking back that claim?

Yeah...as I expected, the exact claim I explicitly pointed out that I did not make, and that I never put forth in the first place. Disappointing.

As far as this discussion goes, it does not matter how or why black people ended up in areas with increased pollution, what matters is that that happened, that it's an issue for them to deal with, and that it hinders success.

 

[Mumbles]

I assume he is, considering that Cosby has been hounded by such accusations for decades.

And to be fair, Cosby did have thirteen separate women allege that he drugged and raped them. That's an unusually high number of complaints - I assume most men are sitting are exactly 0 such complaints.

So, as much as I like his comedy work...he's probably not the best spokesperson, either.

 

[Unabogie]

Name one thing I've been dishonest about.

Show your work!

So sorry that I'm not doing the "decent" thing and accepting wild conspiracy theories without any evidence, because questioning them will get me accused of racism or something.

You know, if someone tells you that they don't actually believe in some conspiracy theory, and they take the time to explain their actual thoughts and give you that respect, it's pathetic to keep saying that do. In fact, the only reason a person would do that is if their only interest is in trolling other users. And honest and decent people don't do that.

As for accusations of racism, people get a sense of your body of work and react accordingly. If you don't want to be thought of that way, you may consider examining the way you present yourself.

 

[luchog]

Yeah, because the coconut slur is reserved for Latinos, at least in southern California.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, it is almost exclusively used by and for Pacific Islanders. Black people still use "Oreo", when they're not using "Uncle Tom".

 

[WildCat]

Yeah...as I expected, the exact claim I explicitly pointed out that I did not make, and that I never put forth in the first place. Disappointing.

Once again, let's examine your own words one more time: said "Obviously, doing things like concentrating bus depots in black neighborhoods,"
You have yet to show a single example of a bus depot being placed in a black neighborhood, let alone a pattern of doing such across the country. And the one example you cited, the Roxbury neighborhood in Boston, was an industrial area long before it became a black neighborhood.

As far as this discussion goes, it does not matter how or why black people ended up in areas with increased pollution, what matters is that that happened, that it's an issue for them to deal with, and that it hinders success.

So now you're walking back your claim, and saying it doesn't matter how black people ended up in areas with increased pollution. But it certainly does matter, as your original conspiracy theory had them purposely locating industry such as bus depots in black neighborhoods. A self-proclaimed smart person should realize this.

As to why black people ended up in polluted neighborhoods perhaps it's simply that land in industrial areas is cheap? No conspiracy required.

 

[WildCat]

You know, if someone tells you that they don't actually believe in some conspiracy theory, and they take the time to explain their actual thoughts and give you that respect, it's pathetic to keep saying that do. In fact, the only reason a person would do that is if their only interest is in trolling other users. And honest and decent people don't do that.

That's not how it works Unabogie. If you want people to believe that you aren't pushing a conspiracy theory it's best to stop repeating it after the claim you don't believe in it.

As for accusations of racism, people get a sense of your body of work and react accordingly. If you don't want to be thought of that way, you may consider examining the way you present yourself.

Sorry, I'm not going to let accusations of racism stop me from pointing out illogical, nonsensical, and ridiculous claims from self-proclaimed smart people simply because they say they're black.

 

[Mumbles]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, it is almost exclusively used by and for Pacific Islanders. Black people still use "Oreo", when they're not using "Uncle Tom".

On every part of the east coast I've been to, "coconut" is an unusual slur for Hispanic people. "Oreo" is the slur for black people, although it's more for the black kids who, say, listens to rock or jazz music and enjoys other stereotypically white things (and how sad is that?), than the kid who likes to learn things.

 

[The Greater Fool]

You either:
- have lived in all black neighborhoods and can personally make this assessment; or- have a survey of poll that backs up this claim.

-have lived and volunteered in places throughout the Eastern and Southern US, and have never seen such a community.

Yes, I have lived in, and mentored in, "all black neighborhoods" (although such communities are also rare. Even in the 80s, we had the few white people who lived there). But I've been in black neighborhoods throughout the East Coast, and the South. And I've never seen it, even in west B'More, where they filmed The Wire. And I've known other people, who do similar work, or are far more invested.

I won't even say that such neighborhoods don't exist. I'm sure they do, just as they exist for all other races. I'm saying they aren't the norm. Barkley is basically claiming that it's *normal* for black people to look for "street cred", to admire "idiots". That's false.

Not making an argument, just think a misunderstanding has occurred...

When SezMe says you (Mumbles) have not lived in "all black neighborhoods", it appears what was meant was "all of the neighborhoods that have majority black residents" rather than "a (or some) neighborhoods with all black residents." Basically, Sezme is making the argument that you're anecdotal experience cannot be extrapolated to all neighborhoods.

A more general question:

It is my perception that minority and/or impoverished neighborhoods use much more public transportation than affluent areas, is that true? If it is true, how is placing a majority of the infrastructure in/near those areas not a reasonable choice? Would not placing such infrastructure where people aren't cost a lot of fuel $ to get the buses back to where they are used?

 

[Unabogie]

That's not how it works Unabogie. If you want people to believe that you aren't pushing a conspiracy theory it's best to stop repeating it after the claim you don't believe in it.

Actually, for normal people interested in having a conversation, that's exactly how it works. You read his words a certain way, he clarified his position, you're bitterly clinging to your original interpretation and you won't let go. That's not honest, nor is it particularly flattering to you.

Sorry, I'm not going to let accusations of racism stop me

That's pretty obvious.

 

[WildCat]

Actually, for normal people interested in having a conversation, that's exactly how it works. You read his words a certain way, he clarified his position, you're bitterly clinging to your original interpretation and you won't let go. That's not honest, nor is it particularly flattering to you.

I have yet to see Mumbles retract his original statement, nor has he admitted he was wrong about Roxbury. He has a long history here of making unsourced accusations in Gish Gallop fashion and then accusing anyone who calls him out on it of being racist, sometimes you come running to his rescue to chime in with the "you're racist" accusations.

Here's a clue: an accusation of racism is not an argument, nor is it a proper response in lieu of supporting a claim. It's just an ad hom attack.

That's pretty obvious.

Much to your chagrin I'm sure. You appear to be used to "winning" an argument by playing the race card. I'm not impressed.

 

[Mumbles]

Not making an argument, just think a misunderstanding has occurred...

When SezMe says you (Mumbles) have not lived in "all black neighborhoods", it appears what was meant was "all of the neighborhoods that have majority black residents" rather than "a (or some) neighborhoods with all black residents." Basically, Sezme is making the argument that you're anecdotal experience cannot be extrapolated to all neighborhoods.

Truth told, I thought about that view as well. Which is why I said that I'm sure that you can find such an area - same as with every other race. But surely, it's a mistake to extrapolate from such areas, to an entire race.

It is my perception that minority and/or impoverished neighborhoods use much more public transportation than affluent areas, is that true? If it is true, how is placing a majority of the infrastructure in/near those areas not a reasonable choice? Would not placing such infrastructure where people aren't cost a lot of fuel $ to get the buses back to where they are used?

In Boston, at least, this is often not true, in that many wealthy people will take public transportation, simply to avoid the time of looking for a parking spot, or paying daily for one. Now, the true elites will buy a parking spot, sometimes for hundreds of thousands. But I've known quite a few teachers, programmers, and other professionals, who would happily ride the T every day in the Boston area, including a couple of people who didn't even have a Driver's License. It was also pretty normal for many of the elite private schools in the area to rely on public transportation for their students to get to and from school - to the point where they would openly sell monthly student passes in their offices.

But the bus depots for the T (as well as for the Asian bus companies that travelled from there to at least DC) were in the poorer, and generally "blacker" neighborhoods. And drivers often left the busses idling for long times before taking them out - Boston gets cold in the winter, and the drivers wanted to let the busses warm up before getting in and driving them. But the end result is a bunch of busses just sitting in the neighborhood, idling, and putting out pollution.

 

[Mumbles]

I have yet to see Mumbles retract his original statement, nor has he admitted he was wrong about Roxbury. He has a long history here of making unsourced accusations in Gish Gallop fashion and then accusing anyone who calls him out on it of being racist, sometimes you come running to his rescue to chime in with the "you're racist" accusations.

Here's a clue: an accusation of racism is not an argument, nor is it a proper response in lieu of supporting a claim. It's just an ad hom attack.

Much to your chagrin I'm sure. You appear to be used to "winning" an argument by playing the race card. I'm not impressed.

Now, here's the amusing part to this: Wildcat accuses me of making "unsourced accusations", yet does not provide any evidence for this assertion. Then, he spins around and proclaims that I make "ad hom" arguments - apparently unaware of the fact that he is himself making an "ad hom" argument.

And no, I will not retract my statements about Roxbury. That's where I grew up. I saw all of this, as it was happening. The fact that you simply decide to ignore evidence because you don't like the source, means nothing to me. Similarly, the fact that you have decided to misinterpret what I wrote (And since I have openly stated that I did *not* mean what you are alleging I meant, there's no other option here), is simply an embarrassment to you. Not my problem.

 

[CplFerro]

Now, here's the amusing part to this: Wildcat accuses me of making "unsourced accusations", yet does not provide any evidence for this assertion. Then, he spins around and proclaims that I make "ad hom" arguments - apparently unaware of the fact that he is himself making an "ad hom" argument.

And no, I will not retract my statements about Roxbury. That's where I grew up. I saw all of this, as it was happening. The fact that you simply decide to ignore evidence because you don't like the source, means nothing to me. Similarly, the fact that you have decided to misinterpret what I wrote (And since I have openly stated that I did *not* mean what you are alleging I meant, there's no other option here), is simply an embarrassment to you. Not my problem.

Why is your experience more credible than Barkley's?

Cpl Ferro

 

[Mumbles]

Why is your experience more credible than Barkley's?

Cpl Ferro

Why should you take Barkley seriously in the first place? Remember, he made a blanket statement about black Americans. Why does he have credibility?

 

[WildCat]

Now, here's the amusing part to this: Wildcat accuses me of making "unsourced accusations", yet does not provide any evidence for this assertion. Then, he spins around and proclaims that I make "ad hom" arguments - apparently unaware of the fact that he is himself making an "ad hom" argument.

And no, I will not retract my statements about Roxbury. That's where I grew up. I saw all of this, as it was happening. The fact that you simply decide to ignore evidence because you don't like the source, means nothing to me. Similarly, the fact that you have decided to misinterpret what I wrote (And since I have openly stated that I did *not* mean what you are alleging I meant, there's no other option here), is simply an embarrassment to you. Not my problem.

This just gets more and more bizarre.

Once again, Mumbles wrote: "Obviously, doing things like concentrating bus depots in black neighborhoods, especially when they ran on leaded fuel, will affect those neighborhoods."

And we have yet to see a single example of bus depots being "concentrated" in black neighborhoods, let alone in Roxbury. And certainly not a statistically significant pattern nationwide.

All we get are denials that Mumbles said what he clearly said, that he really meant that houses existed before diesel engines.

 

[WildCat]

Why should you take Barkley seriously in the first place? Remember, he made a blanket statement about black Americans. Why does he have credibility?

At least we know he's a real person, and not just someone on the internet who calls himself Mumbles who could be a middle aged woman of Polish decent for all we know.

Which wouldn't matter one bit if you could provide any evidence whatsoever for your claims, but, well... you haven't.

 

[Mumbles]

At least we know he's a real person, and not just someone on the internet who calls himself Mumbles who could be a middle aged woman of Polish decent for all we know.

Which wouldn't matter one bit if you could provide any evidence whatsoever for your claims, but, well... you haven't.

Stay digging that hole you're in. Go ahead.

 

[Mumbles]

Like I said, I don't know much about him, hence the question. I hadn't heard of his brawls or assaults. I suppose a lack of impulse control could be considered an indication of a lack of intelligence, but I'm unsure as to what extent.

Keep in mind, Barkley also dropped out of college, in order to pursue a basketball career. And it worked out very well for him, which is fine by me.

But we're back to the central point - is Barkley brave, bold, or new, in stating what he did? The obvious answer is "no".

 

[Caper]

Stay digging that hole you're in. Go ahead.

Mumbles. You made an extraordinary claim. You've been called out on it... and now can't at all back it up. How on earth is that an example of wildcat digging themselves deeper.