Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Machiavellian double standard.

I don't understand what exactly you are talking about. But I understand that this one is the last part of the post where you throw in some kind of 'suspicion' or allegation about the writer, or about this or that other side charachter or messenger, as in your style.

Take a peek at the listing of why Machiavelli says he's part of the Pro-guit PR lobby. See if you agree the number of times in this list that Machiavelli....

throw(s) in some kind of 'suspicion' or allegation

To make his case.

Machiavelli said:
Well I have the following evidence:

1) the number and gravity of obvious violation of law and factual falsehoods/absurdities in Hellmann-Zanetti verdict and running of the trial, is too much beyond what you can expect a judge to get wrong in good faith; I had spotted the abomination and absurdity of the Hellmann-Zanetti motivation from the beginning.

Machiavelli does not mention one example.

Machiavelli said:
2) Hellmann had no experience as a criminal judge; he used to be a nullity, and a civil judge in a minuscle venue, and had no reputation of respect or transparency;

Reputation with......... who? De Nunzio?
Machiavelli said:
3) Hellmann he was put in that role in sudden replacement of the true judge, Sergio Matteini Chiari, who was pushed away and forced to give up the role through a Machiavellian move by Wladimiro De Nunzio
This is an allegation and suspicion, with no proof whatsoever.
Machiavelli said:
4) all indication point to the fact Hellmann is a Mason;
5) Hellmann is a very rich man who loves money, collects Ferraris and luxurious items, despite having the pay of a normal magistrate.
Gee, I wonder which "suspicion" Machiavelli wants his reader to draw?
Machiavelli said:
6) witnesses saw Vecchiotti and Conti in a chummy atitude with Dalla Vedova and Maori at at time before they issued their report
Which witnesses were these? Without specifics, this is an unverified and perhaps unverifiable allegation, meant to do damage simply by casting the aspersion.
Machiavelli said:
7) witnesses have spotted a number Knox-Solelcito of defence lawers in the ofices of Wladimiro De Nunzio before the beginning of the appeal trial
Repeat.
Machiavelli said:
8) Rocco Girlanda published a book and spoke publicly as if he knew in advance that Knox and Sollecito would be freed on appeal; Girlanda is a Mason and a key person in a US-Italy lobby, and politically linked to a number of people including Hellmann
The aspersion is that Masons will always act contrary to truth to protect another Mason.
Machiavelli said:
9) witnesses reported about contacts betwen Vecchiotti and Conti and American defence consultants, and there were public admissions of them
Repeat of the unknown witnesses allegation.
Machiavelli said:
10) there is another number of public admissions by American people involved, evidence about which I will remain silent;
Thank the Lord.
Machiavelli said:
11) the reputation of Conti and Vecchiotti from their prior history (as well as the complete lack of expertise of Conti on the filed); the tight links between Vecchiotti and some defence experts (who are also now indicted for corruption on other cases); the personal war already existing between Vecchiotti and Stefanoni;
Amd this means.................... ? Or is it simply an allegation?
Machiavelli said:
12) a number of other elements: overall, the picture of manipulation of the trial was glaring and obvious on any aspect of the trial conduction.
It is amazing that Machiavelli would criticize someone else for "allegedly" doing what he is obviously doing.

Please answer the question about De Nunzio. Do you think he's a criminal?
 
Heh.

Nothing ever changes for the mini-me's of Italian "justice," does it? War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength...

But, for anyone who hasn't seen it and may be interested in factual information...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2gMitBj7xeKaDJkNWEyTjZSVEE/view?usp=sharing

You may also attach the transcript of hearing of May 20. 2011, where Vecchiotti and Conti declare they had obtained all data they had requested and said the cooperation of the Scientific Police was complete ("massima collaborazione").
You may also quote the Conti-Vecchiotti report and note there is no complaint about withholding data or lack of raw data nor any mention about missing raw data.
You may also quote Vecchiotti's hearing of July 30. 2011 where she points out again that Stefanoni was "cooperative".
All this is rather factual.
 
You may also attach the transcript of hearing of May 20. 2011, where Vecchiotti and Conti declare they had obtained all data they had requested and said the cooperation of the Scientific Police was complete ("massima collaborazione").
You may also quote the Conti-Vecchiotti report and note there is no complaint about withholding data or lack of raw data nor any mention about missing raw data.
You may also quote Vecchiotti's hearing of July 30. 2011 where she points out again that Stefanoni was "cooperative".
All this is rather factual.

Except nobody has the data.
 
It is not a purely formal point. It is a very substantial point. Knox was not a suspect when she arrived at the police station on the evening ov Nov. 5, first because 'suspect' does not mean a subjective behavior such as the attiude of investigators towards a person, it means that incriminating evidence has already been collected and it is already usable against that person: this is what suspect means in the substance and from a procedure point of view. It does not mean that the police think you may have done something; second, because elements were pointing against Knox indicating that she was lying to the police and involved in covering up for the murderer, but there were no elements specifically indicating that she was also the murderer. The spirit of the law, even on a substantial level, is that investigators would use suspicious witnesses (like people covering - up) in order to lead them to find the perpetrator of the main crime.

People suspected of covering up a murder = people suspected of a very serious criminal offence = people with important rights against self-incrimination which the law is supposed to protect. You are the one who said she was already strongly suspected but have since maintained, on what grounds I have no idea, she wasn't suspected of the murder itself. Please set out the facts and matters which together account for the strong suspicion entertained by the police and the investigating magistrate. Let's see whether they point only to covering up but not in any way at all to murder, a false distinction here IMO, but it's an interesting subject to explore.

By the way, did you know that while Raffaele and Amanda were at the police station someone was unlawfully in Raffaele's apartment interfering with his computer?
 
What's up,
Happy Halloween!

Another personal story.
I got into a fist fight again, on a beach here in Los Angeles last month.
No biggie, kinda fun, but my bro, a fellow surfer, gay, who does not like to fight, who watched it start from a verbal incident into fists bein' thrown was shocked how easy it can happen with 2 strangers. I'm not, for I've been there before, it'll happen again someday. I'm sure the spectators in the fine dining establishment right above me on that early Sunday evening were kinda shocked. It was over quick, with no blood loss or no black eyes received on my part, hahaha...

I kinda know a little bit about street fighting.
I've had to go to Court for fighting on the beach before.
Maybe you'll dig what I'm gonna add to the conversation...

Do you know what it is that tells me that Meredith was restrained when attacked?

The lack of either of her hands being completely immersed in her own blood.

Only her left hand has some blood drops on it.
And those blood drops are a bit dried, not even really smeared at all,
which tells me that the duvet was placed over and on her quite some time after she died.


I don't think that I've ever seen anyone get hurt, in any serious manner, and not immediately put heir hands upon the wound. That throat wound on her neck was major damage, both of her hands and arms should have been covered in her own blood. But they are not. She was being restrained as she was being sexually assaulted. And then she was stabbed when something happened. Maybe someone pulled her hair, such as what is seen found on her bedroom floor and she screamed too loud or bit something that hurt immensely. And she was stabbed to silence her or stabbed in retaliation for fighting back. Her arms were still being held. There is not much blood on her arms or hands. Where's the blood?

My opinion only.
RW

RW - I suspect you are way too old to be getting into undignified fist fights on the beach. Grow up! :)

You make an interesting point. I would like an expert opinion on what one expects to see in such cases. Why do you think there is any blood on her hand at all?
 
Concerning Rudy Guede: two thoughts
1) He was set free after Milan police apprehended him after illegal entry to a nursery; a few days later he murdered Meredith Kercher in Perugia
2) He is now eligible for day release from prison and has been reported to be petitioning for early release as may be allowed by Italy's recent program to reduce prison crowding

This case: ECtHR 28634/06: Maiorano and Others v. Italy

Press release issued by the Registrar


Chamber judgment[1]


Case of Maiorano and Others v. Italy (application no. 28634/06)



State was responsible in respect of double murder committed by dangerous offender on day release and failed to conduct a satisfactory investigation into individual negligence within the judicial system



Unanimously



Violation of Article 2 (right to life) of the European Convention on Human Rights



(The judgment is available only in French)



Principal facts

The applicants, Roberta Maiorano, Immacolata Maiorano, Vincenza Maiorano, Mario Maiorano, Monica Maiorano, Matilde Cristofalo, Giovanni Maiorano and Cesare Maiorano, are Italian nationals who were born in 1968, 1959, 1964, 1956, 1973, 1937, 1955 and 1931 respectively. They live in the province of Lecce (Italy). They are relatives of Ms Maria Carmela Linciano and Ms Valentina Maiorano, who were murdered in 2005 by Mr Angelo Izzo.

In 1975, with two accomplices, Angelo Izzo held two young women in illegal confinement and subjected them, for several days, to rape and brutal abuse. One of them, who had been left for dead in the boot of a car with the corpse of her friend, had managed to attract the attention of the police. Izzo was quickly arrested and in 1976 was sentenced to life imprisonment. The Italian press at the time named this crime the “Circeo massacre”, after the seaside resort where it took place.

In 1992, in spite of the numerous incidents in which he had been involved during his time in prison, leading to further convictions, and in particular an escape attempt with hostage-taking, Angelo Izzo began to benefit from periods of prison leave. The probation officers responsible for his assessment took the view that he had undertaken some self-analysis and had developed a significant feeling of guilt about the offences he had committed. On one occasion he failed to return to prison after his leave. He was arrested in France in 1993 with false identity documents and a large sum of money. The police authorities established that while he was on the run he had been helped by certain criminal organisations. He was sent back to Italy to serve the remainder of his prison sentences.

From 1999 onwards Angelo Izzo was again granted release on temporary licence, in particular for good conduct. In October 2003, after being allowed to leave prison by the sentence execution judge of Campobasso, provided that he did not frequent anyone with a criminal record, the carabinieri found him in a hotel room with a youth who was known to the police. They also noticed that three minors had been in his room shortly before. The youth and one of those minors were the sons of a fellow prisoner. Angelo Izzo was subsequently transferred to Palermo prison.

On 15 November 2004 Mr Izzo was granted day release by the sentence execution court of Palermo. That decision was taken on the basis of a comprehensive dossier containing an expert psychiatrist’s report and probation officers’ reports that were favourable to him. The day release scheme was implemented from 27 December 2004 onwards, under the supervision of the sentence execution judge of Campobasso, as Mr Izzo had in the meantime returned to Campobasso prison. The scheme included a resettlement programme and was subject to a certain number of restrictions, including an obligation to spend the night in prison and not to frequent anyone who was a repeat offender, outside the association which had agreed to employ him. The aim of this association was to assist in the rehabilitation of prisoners and other marginal groups.

On 25 August 2004 a fellow prisoner informed the police that Angelo Izzo had engaged him to kill the president of the sentence execution court of Campobasso. The police monitored calls made on his mobile phones and from phone boxes and discovered that he had re-established contacts with the criminal underworld. A second fellow prisoner informed the authorities about regular proposals he had received from Mr Izzo to participate in criminal activities. As it was waiting to ascertain whether Mr Izzo had actually re-offended, the public prosecutor’s office did not forward this information to the sentence execution judge. The day release scheme was therefore maintained.

While on day release Angelo Izzo planned and carried out, with the help of two accomplices, the double murder of Maria Carmela Linciano and Valentina Maiorano, the wife and daughter of the seventh applicant, Giovanni Maiorano, a prisoner Mr Izzo had known in Palermo prison. The crime was discovered after one of his accomplices had been arrested in possession of a weapon. The victims’ bodies were found the next day buried in a garden. By his own admission, Izzo had murdered them without any particular motive and had “felt elated” while he was doing it. He was sentenced once again to life imprisonment.

On 3 May 2005 the Minister of Justice opened an administrative inquiry to determine whether, in the procedure whereby Angelo Izzo had been granted day release, the judges of the sentence execution court of Palermo were accountable for disciplinary purposes. On 14 March 2008 the National Legal Service Council issued the judges concerned with a “reprimand”, taking the view that in assessing Angelo Izzo’s behaviour they had not taken into account the fact that he had already breached some of the rules governing his release on temporary licence.

On 20 September 2007 the applicants filed a criminal complaint against the public prosecutors of Campobasso and Bari, who, they alleged, should have forwarded to the sentence execution courts the information from Mr Izzo’s two fellow prisoners about his suspicious behaviour and in particular his intention to commit a murder. That complaint was not acted upon.


Complaints, procedure and composition of the Court



The applicants alleged that by allowing Angelo Izzo to benefit from a day release scheme, the authorities had failed to protect the lives of Maria Carmela Linciano and Valentina Maiorano. The application was lodged with the Court on 5 July 2006.




Judgment was given by a Chamber of seven judges composed as follows:



Françoise Tulkens (Belgium), President,
Ireneu Cabral Barreto (Portugal),
Vladimiro Zagrebelsky (Italy),
Danutė Jočienė (Lithuania),
Dragoljub Popović (Serbia),
András Sajó (Hungary),
Kristina Pardalos (San-Marino), judges,

and Françoise Elens-Passos, Deputy Section Registrar.





Decision of the Court



Substantive limb of Article 2



The Court reiterated that Article 2 of the Convention enjoined the State not only to refrain from the intentional and unlawful taking of life, but also to take appropriate steps to safeguard the lives of those within its jurisdiction. In some cases there might be a requirement of personal protection of one or more individuals identifiable in advance as the potential target of a lethal act. In other cases it might be necessary to afford general protection to society against the potential acts of persons serving a prison sentence for a violent crime and to determine the scope of that protection.



In the present case, at the time Angelo Izzo was granted day release it had not been possible to identify Maria Carmela Linciano and Valentina Maiorano as potential targets of a lethal act on his part. The case thus concerned the obligation for the Italian judicial system to afford general protection to society against potential danger from a person who had been convicted for a violent crime.



In this connection, the Court could not find fault in general with the arrangements in Italy for the resettlement of prisoners. The system had a legitimate aim and provided for sufficient safeguards. However, the manner in which that system had been applied in Mr Izzo’s precise case was questionable. Firstly, the Court noted that the positive factors which had led the Palermo sentence execution court to grant day release, in particular the favourable reports by probation officers and psychiatrists, had been counterbalanced by many indications to the contrary. Throughout his imprisonment Angelo Izzo had in fact regularly committed criminal offences and his behaviour had shown that he had a tendency to disrespect the law and authority. In view of the dangerousness of a repeat offender who had been convicted of exceptionally brutal crimes, those circumstances should have led the sentence execution court to be more prudent. Secondly, the Court noted that the public prosecutor of Campobasso had been promptly made aware of the fact that Angelo Izzo, once granted day release, had re-established contacts with the criminal underworld and was actively planning criminal acts. Despite the fact that it had taken this danger seriously, and had even ordered police surveillance, the public prosecutor’s office had not informed the sentence execution judge with a view to the possible withdrawal of the day release scheme.



The Court took the view that the granting by the Palermo sentence execution court of day release to Angelo Izzo, despite his criminal record and behaviour in prison, together with the failure by the public prosecutor’s office of Campobasso to forward information on his criminal activities to the sentence execution judge, had constituted a breach of the duty of care required by Article 2 of the Convention. Accordingly, the Court held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 2 under its substantive head.





Procedural limb of Article 2



The Court reiterated that the positive obligations laid down in Article 2 of the Convention also required by implication that an efficient and independent judicial system should be set in place by which the cause of a murder could be established and the guilty parties punished, including where State agents or authorities were allegedly responsible.



In the present case, a criminal investigation into the murder of Maria Carmela Linciano and Valentina Maiorano had been opened quickly and had led to the sentencing of Angelo Izzo to life imprisonment. A disciplinary inquiry had also been conducted in order to determine the responsibilities of the judiciary in respect of this double murder.



However, whilst the Minister of Justice had brought disciplinary proceedings against the judges of the Palermo sentence execution court, as a result of which they had been reprimanded, the applicants’ criminal complaint against the public prosecutors of Campobasso had not been acted upon and no disciplinary action had been taken against those prosecutors. Therefore, the State had not entirely fulfilled its positive obligation to ascertain whether any responsibility could be imputed to its agents in respect of the murder of Maria Carmela Linciano and Valentina Maiorano. The Court thus also held, unanimously, that there had been a violation of Article 2 of the Convention under its procedural head.





Under Article 41 (just satisfaction) of the Convention, the Court awarded 10,000 euros to Giovanni Maiorano and 5,000 euros to each of the other applicants in respect of non-pecuniary damage.
 
It should be as well clear though, that the ECHR is no court of merits. It does NOT perform fact-finding activity.
It is actually not even a court of instance, I mean it does not even rule about the legitimacy of proceedings in terms of accuracy, consistency or respect of law and jurisprudence.
The ECHR only decides based on the findings of other courts as for all matters of facts. This means the ECHR will never find out or rule on alleged facts such as that Knox was coerced or that she was slapped, unless such facts are findings already established by some court.

There is some truth in this post, but it is not the whole truth.

For example, the highlighted sentence, in describing how the ECtHR operates, omits that:
1) the ECtHR looks at any records it chooses to and is not limited to court records; the Contracting States (the CoE states, "High Contracting Parties") are obligated to supply any information it requests; and
2) the EConHR (Article 38) explicitly authorizes the ECtHR to conduct investigations, using the facilities of the concerned Contracting State.

Regarding the italicized statement, the ECtHR does not rule on facts or Contract State trials as an ultimate appeal court; it does, however, state opinions on the truth or falsity of alleged facts in developing the chain of logic it employs to determine whether or not an individual's rights under the EConHR have been violated. It does not overturn trials, but rules on whether or not trials have been fair in accordance with EConHR.

The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, in its role of enforcing by diplomatic and political means the judgments of the ECtHR, does seek when appropriate to overturn trials judged unfair and to seek pardons or new trials, or whatever action as may be suitable to redress unfair trials. It also seeks by diplomatic and political means to encourage or prompt Contracting States to effect long-term penal, judicial, legal, or constitutional changes to prevent future unfairness.

ARTICLE 38
Examination of the case

The Court shall examine the case together with the representatives of the parties and, if need be, undertake an investigation, for the effective conduct of which the High Contracting Parties concerned shall furnish all necessary facilities.
{Emphasis added}
 
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What's up,
Happy Halloween!

Another personal story.
I got into a fist fight again, on a beach here in Los Angeles last month.
No biggie, kinda fun, but my bro, a fellow surfer, gay, who does not like to fight, who watched it start from a verbal incident into fists bein' thrown was shocked how easy it can happen with 2 strangers. I'm not, for I've been there before, it'll happen again someday. I'm sure the spectators in the fine dining establishment right above me on that early Sunday evening were kinda shocked. It was over quick, with no blood loss or no black eyes received on my part, hahaha...

I kinda know a little bit about street fighting.
I've had to go to Court for fighting on the beach before.
Maybe you'll dig what I'm gonna add to the conversation...

Do you know what it is that tells me that Meredith was restrained when attacked?

The lack of either of her hands being completely immersed in her own blood.

Only her left hand has some blood drops on it.
And those blood drops are a bit dried, not even really smeared at all,
which tells me that the duvet was placed over and on her quite some time after she died.


I don't think that I've ever seen anyone get hurt, in any serious manner, and not immediately put heir hands upon the wound. That throat wound on her neck was major damage, both of her hands and arms should have been covered in her own blood. But they are not. She was being restrained as she was being sexually assaulted. And then she was stabbed when something happened. Maybe someone pulled her hair, such as what is seen found on her bedroom floor and she screamed too loud or bit something that hurt immensely. And she was stabbed to silence her or stabbed in retaliation for fighting back. Her arms were still being held. There is not much blood on her arms or hands. Where's the blood?

My opinion only.
RW

Questions:
1) Was Meredith's body when discovered still wearing her jacket and top, but pulled up? Could this have restricted her arm movements?
2) Image you showed the other day had Meredith's fingers curled. Could the curl be postmortem? Contraction of ligaments or such?
3) Could the blood on her hand be the result of splatter? Didn't she have spots of blood on her chest as well?
4) When I first saw that pix, I thought the hair could be her own - that she wasn't restrained except maybe by the knife and hair-pull, and that she had reached and caught one of her own hairs. Is there a reliable estimate of the length of the hair(s)?
5) Where the heck are the footprints etc. of the alleged 2nd perp? (Unless the ILE suppressed some MK bedroom evidence besides the purported semen on the pillow.)
 
Well the Court as far ad I know cannot decide on whether a trial follows a particular state's own Constitution. There are legitimacy courts for that. The ECHR rules on whether the decisions are compatible with the Charts of HR. There is a jurisprudence about compatibility between procedure codes and the ECHR standards, the Italian cpp articles employed on this case are solid under this point of view.

The ECHR is indeed based on the acts from other courts. I am tot saying that the particular finding of a violation is necessary, but the "failure" to pursue a legal action is also something that consists in trial papers, it's judicial finding; for example if you submit a legal complaint and none of the witnesses that you indicated is summoned, that would be a documental evidence of a court's failure to proceed. Such evidence comes from other courts papers, it's not a finding bt the ECHR.
There is no such evidence, there is no such finding in this trial.

Highlighted sentence: Of course ECtHR does this. Their purpose is to determine if rights have been violated, and to find out if there is any problem with the system of laws and/or the actual procedures of the state that contributes to the violation.

Italicized sentence: ECtHR uses any records that are submitted to it or that it requests. It has the power to INVESTIGATE granted to it by Article 38 of the EConHR.
 
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The result of Luca v. Italy was that Italy was compelled to change its constitution. It changed Article 111 to prevent use of testimony from a witness that would not be cross-examined in another person's trial except with permission of the defendant or under other very special circumstances. The point is that Italy's constitution did not conform to the EConHR and Italy changed it as a result of Luca v. Italy.

Perhaps you are neglecting the role of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe in your consideration. The ECtHR does not enforce its rulings directly or conduct investigations by itself; it does, in accordance with the EConHR, use the CoM of the CoE to enforce and extend its rulings.

ETA: There is a good flow chart showing how an application moves through ECtHR at:

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Case_processing_ENG.pdf

ETA 2: "Compelled" may be a bit too strong. "Continually diplomatically nagged to make changes" may be better language.
 
Have you read her application?

Why be concerned if the forum members have read her application?

You do realize that the ECtHR will forward it (or a summary) to the Italian Government for their comments and any rebuttal in due time.

It's an adversarial process. And it takes some time.
 
Well the Court as far ad I know cannot decide on whether a trial follows a particular state's own Constitution. There are legitimacy courts for that. The ECHR rules on whether the decisions are compatible with the Charts of HR. There is a jurisprudence about compatibility between procedure codes and the ECHR standards, the Italian cpp articles employed on this case are solid under this point of view.

The ECHR is indeed based on the acts from other courts. I am tot saying that the particular finding of a violation is necessary, but the "failure" to pursue a legal action is also something that consists in trial papers, it's judicial finding; for example if you submit a legal complaint and none of the witnesses that you indicated is summoned, that would be a documental evidence of a court's failure to proceed. Such evidence comes from other courts papers, it's not a finding bt the ECHR.
There is no such evidence, there is no such finding in this trial.

To get a better understanding of the procedures followed by the ECtHR and Council of Ministers (CoM) of the Council of Europe, examine the flow chart at:
http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Case_processing_ENG.pdf

The CoM is in charge of Execution of the ECtHR judgment; it is the body that looks to ensuring payment of compensation, general legal reform measures, and specific measures to restore, as best as possible, the individual to his/her condition before the state's violation of human rights.
 
No. First, Stefanoni produced everything. But this was interpreted as to produce everything that she handled, that is everything that was readable by a human and thus could be seen and be the record. The raw data produce a chart, charts are in identical copy and the charts were all given. I bet nobody thought about "giving" raw data files since such material is just machine data that is not readable itself, Stefanoni never looked at it directly, she worked with the charts. However, we come to the second point: yet there was another hearing after that, more than one, and there was a possibility to petition the SC and make further submissions; yet at that point there wasn't a defence complaint about mising raw data, there were defence complaints about incorrect documentation (not "missing" material, but documetation failures, like not all items had a SAL) on a series of other things, but not a request of raw data; but besides the fact that the existence of 'raw data' was never explained by the defence, then it wasn't Stefanoni who refused to turn over things or the prosecution (who were unaware themselves about the existence of raw data) who were violating an order, it was instead the judge who cut the request and decided that the matarial available to the defence to that point was enough.
The defence didn't submit an instance for a raw data request to any other court.

I suspect Mach is factually right here. Stefanoni did what was normal practice and provided paper documents. The nature of the Italian legal process is very paper based. Relatively little is examined in open court. Thus we see that the paper version of the witness statements is definitive and in court all that a witness may be asked is to 'verify' the truth of his statement. In fact and I'm sure Mach will correct me if I have misinterpreted the definitive record of an interrogation / interview would not be the transcription of a recording (or indeed the recording) but the summary written by the police officer. This is why recording suspects is not routine. I wonder if this was the first case where because of the US involvement that provision of the electronic data became important. Equally it seems to be accepted that the public minister has some rights in deciding what evidence is relevant and should be provided to the court. Clearly there are limits to discovery even in the US or UK, the defence may need to make a case for the requested information and provision should not be excessively arduous.

Whilst much of what Stefanoni did may have been legally acceptable in Italy it was not in the interests of Justice. There are lots of ways to 'fiddle' paper outputs from machines to get pictures that support the case you make. You can put in filters to flatten the baseline, adjust the scale and put in a false origin. The paper output is effectively an interpretation of the results NOT the results of the test. Heights or AUC measurements will almost certainly have been done on a computer with the original data not with a ruler on the paper output. Effectively the paper graph may conceal information from the defence (even if that was not the intent), this is why access to the results of the test not the paper interpretation is important. Stefanoni if being a neutral scientist should have been looking for exculpatory evidence, in reality we know most forensic scientists look for guilt not innocence. An example of this is Stefanoni is more concerned tests may result in a false negative (disadvantaging the prosecution) than in a false positive (resulting in a possible false conviction).
 
A year ago Dan O did a timeline narrative Continuation part 6 beginning page 97 in memory of Meredith.
 
It is not a purely formal point. It is a very substantial point. Knox was not a suspect when she arrived at the police station on the evening ov Nov. 5, first because 'suspect' does not mean a subjective behavior such as the attiude of investigators towards a person, it means that incriminating evidence has already been collected and it is already usable against that person: this is what suspect means in the substance and from a procedure point of view. It does not mean that the police think you may have done something; second, because elements were pointing against Knox indicating that she was lying to the police and involved in covering up for the murderer, but there were no elements specifically indicating that she was also the murderer. The spirit of the law, even on a substantial level, is that investigators would use suspicious witnesses (like people covering - up) in order to lead them to find the perpetrator of the main crime.

Giobbi had ordered her to be taken prior to her arrival at the questura. She was suspected already at least on the basis of 'behavioural evidence'. So, 'incriminating evidence' that you refer to, had already been collected and would be used against her at trial. The question of when is a suspect a suspect is a perennial one across jurisdictions. Italy has been called out by human rights organisations on this very point on more than one occasion.
 
Broken records & loose lips.

Numbers,

Dr. Hampikian and Dr. Krane both made attempts to obtain the EDFs. The defense requests were turned aside no later than 2010. Forensic consulting corporation in the U.S. have standard discovery forms on their websites that include reference to these files. What information do you have about discovery in Italy?


I have no wish to get involved again in dealing with your various and varying claims about these EDF’s.
I have disposed of your arguments on this issue a long time ago – not that I was the first to do so.
However there is one aspect which may be worth revisiting.
A JREF member [don’t know if he has rejoined the caravan*] with the username Charlie Wilkes, who claims a relationship with the American killer close enough to allow him to opine on her personal hygiene, has claimed he has firsthand knowledge of the matter.

Should he chose to respond to the Q’s posed here [the link contains his post/claims] we may finally manage to move the matter forward.

Or not. We shall see.


* ETA I see he has. Go for it CW - the first big scoop on the new board!
 
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just bear in mind that, under the incidente probatorio procedure, the activities directly accessible to defence experts were supposed to be closed by June 2008.
I suspect nobody here understands what incidente probatorio means, what kind of event that is.

Oooh. I know what it is! That's when Italians destroy evidence!

The defence and their experts did not demand further laboratory data nor raised objections to judge Matteini or to judge Ricciarelli about the DNA tests. It is possible that the defence regrets all this (although I don't believe it) but the fact is the defence did not ask for the raw data not even later when they were before a preliminar judge (that is, Judge Micheli at the preliminary hearing). They did not requst such data not even in later submissions, not to the Supreme Court and not to the Appeal court. Maybe they decided very late that all this was regrettable (I don't believe this), yet they can't blame Sgtefanoni for this, they can't "use" their mistake as an argument against the accusation party, this won't be legally effective.

Then how did Novelli get his data?

Anyway, I wish you would stop with this silly nonsense. As you yourself admit, the raw data was requested and Massei ordered the prosecution to produce. This proves that the request was not late, all of your excuses notwithstanding.

So such data that were not requested, not during the investigation while the incidente probatorio was open, not during the preliminary hearing stage, not during the trial stage until the moment of that confuse oral request about raw data that was made by only one lawer in an unclear fashion at the end of the 2009 trial, and never forwarded again (in any submission, not even in the defence submissions to the Supreme Court nor in the Perugian appeal).

Massei order the raw data to be produced and Comodi intentionally violated the order.
 
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No. First, Stefanoni produced everything. But this was interpreted as to produce everything that she handled, that is everything that was readable by a human and thus could be seen and be the record.

No, it was interpreted as everything that the prosecution wanted the defense to have. Stefanoni withheld well over 100 profiles and all elecronic evidence.

The raw data produce a chart, charts are in identical copy and the charts were all given. I bet nobody thought about "giving" raw data files since such material is just machine data that is not readable itself, Stefanoni never looked at it directly, she worked with the charts.

You don't know what you're talking about. But you argument does prove that the probatorio incidente procedure is useless with respect to electronic data, and that such data should be provided as supplement to the paper data, particularly when it has been specifically requested by the defense and the judge has ordered the prosecution to produce it.

However, we come to the second point: yet there was another hearing after that, more than one, and there was a possibility to petition the SC and make further submissions; yet at that point there wasn't a defence complaint about mising raw data, there were defence complaints about incorrect documentation (not "missing" material, but documetation failures, like not all items had a SAL) on a series of other things, but not a request of raw data;

Um, they asked for the case to be dismissed for failure to produce the data that Massei had ordered produced, and the prosecution refused to turn over.

it wasn't Stefanoni who refused to turn over things or the prosecution (who were unaware themselves about the existence of raw data) who were violating an order

Oh, I see, the prosecution violated the order because of their ignorance. I knew there had to be some reason.
 
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It's a fantasy. Italian law doesn't allow possibility of friendly settlement on a criminal trial. No Italian authority could have a mandate to negotiate on this. The only authority with powers in matter of judicial decisions in criminal law is the Supreme Court, and they are not going to negotiate. You may find more flexible negotiators in the ISIS.

I suspect this is true. That's why the whole thing is going to be so delicious.
 
Giobbi had ordered her to be taken prior to her arrival at the questura. She was suspected already at least on the basis of 'behavioural evidence'. So, 'incriminating evidence' that you refer to, had already been collected and would be used against her at trial. The question of when is a suspect a suspect is a perennial one across jurisdictions. Italy has been called out by human rights organisations on this very point on more than one occasion.

In this case, it's very easy to tell when she was a suspect: look at the "incriminating evidence" that is called out in the arrest warrant and think about when they got it. See the arrest warrant at the bottom of this page: http://www.amandaknox.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder/verdicts-motivations/
 
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