'What about building 7'?

[JSanderO]

You keep saying this. The "refrigerant" was water.

These were dry air cooled.

They would shut down a soon as the gen-sets did. The evidence that the gen-sets failed soon after the north tower collapse is from video that shows the intake louvers closed.

The problem is the transfer trusses were not in the same area as the gen-sets or fuel. They were in a separate area containing the HVAC.

Coolant systems don't use water...

Believe what you want... because it is BELIEF.. I've seen not a single report from any of the areas of 5,6 where the mech equipment and the electrical equipment and the back up power system were.

But you CAN see in some vids and photos almost the entire 8th floor ablaze on the north side.... what was that burning? files?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

They would shut down a soon as the gen-sets did. The evidence that the gen-sets failed soon after the north tower collapse is from video that shows the intake louvers closed.

That does not mean a cat gen set is not
Still running cats will suck air in around the air filter on the engine.
However if they are running they would
Be producing tons of explosive carbon monoxide.
most Installations like you refering to have a double filtration
System.

 

[Spanx]

I think that MM's strategy is to become the most boring CT in history, so that everyone gives up and he can declare victory. Seriously, this is just tedious meandering around nonsense. Quoting 6 or 7 prior posts, using blue text for no reason, delving into silly minutiae; it's like trolling on quaaludes.

I agree with you. It really is pathetic for a grown man to be coming with so much nonsense.

 

[DGM]

You do know that I am refering to the injector
Fuel return lines which sometimes even in interior
Gen sets are rubber 1/4th inch lines?

Yes, I do. Only sometimes but, not allowed in NYC.

Was there a heat exchanger?

Water is not a refrigerant, it requires a heat
Exchanger from the compressor to cool it.

Chillers were installed on the roof. This is common in large applications .

 

[DGM]

Coolant systems don't use water...

Believe what you want... because it is BELIEF.. I've seen not a single report from any of the areas of 5,6 where the mech equipment and the electrical equipment and the back up power system were.

But you CAN see in some vids and photos almost the entire 8th floor ablaze on the north side.... what was that burning? files?

Chillers were installed on the roof. Even those don't contain anything flammable anymore. They cool water which is piped to the rest of the building. It's cheap and effective.

 

[DGM]

That does not mean a cat gen set is not
Still running cats will suck air in around the air filter on the engine.
However if they are running they would
Be producing tons of explosive carbon monoxide.
most Installations like you refering to have a double filtration
System.

Not so much. The auto-shutdown systems react to low oil (quantity and pressure), high coolant temp, high exhaust/turbo temp and intake air restriction. These use paper filters that clog easy (unlike field set-ups that could pass a rock).

 

[JSanderO]

Chillers were installed on the roof. Even those don't contain anything flammable anymore. They cool water which is piped to the rest of the building. It's cheap and effective.

When the system was done... you know all the flammable substances? Water in pipes can also explode when heated... And Con Ed transformers are exploding all the time... even today.. and when Sandy hit.

I stand pat and your musings don't convince me but thanks for trying.

 

[JSanderO]

Of course the sprinkler system didn't work and papers burned on the 13th floor and did in column 79 as a result. OK that's credible.

 

[DGM]

When the system was done... you know all the flammable substances? Water in pipes can also explode when heated... And Con Ed transformers are exploding all the time... even today.. and when Sandy hit.

I stand pat and your musings don't convince me but thanks for trying.

No problem, I wasn't trying to convince you. (BTW: you don't convince me either)

ETA: There were no ConEd transformers near the floors you claimed.

 

[DGM]

JSanderO:
When a design calls for a "transformer vault", what are they talking about? Does it have a specific rating or is it just a closet where you hide things that are not pretty?

You can be specific to the wtc7 application.

 

[jaydeehess]

There was no one or vids from this region all day. There were no windows into the mech floors. We don't know what was going on in there. We DO know that there was at least one explosion that Jennings and Hess reported... likely electrical gear... or similar. What it did aside from collapse the stair which was adjacent / between / near TT1 and TT2 we don't know. If you know of any damage assessment reports from inside the transfer area / mech floor... please do share.

We do know there were hundreds and hundreds of gallons of diesel there, flammable HVAC refrigerant perhaps... transformers which CAN explode and release hot damaging gases. We know there were pumps which could supply fuel without the main power on... and no reports that these pumps were shut down. Can you cite reports that the diesel lift pumps shut down?

If you have evidence that the transfer/mech region down there was room temperature etc... cite it. Until such time this is a suspect area for the initiation.

I did not say any about what there WAS evidence for JSO, just what there is no evidence for. Since that area was at room temp at least up until 8AM in the morning, AND we have no evidence of any fires in that region, we can only assume that there are no fires there.

I am not at home right now. When I left it this morning my house was not on fire, therefore I assume that it is not on fire now. Granted, if I got a call that the house next door was on fire then the odds are better that my house is on fire than they would be w/o that information, but I would have to operate on the assumption that since there was no information that it is on fire, then it isn't.

The timelines greatly suggest that the 'explosion' Jennings describes is actually the impact on WTC7 of the WTC 1 debris. He reports "other" explosions but that is so very non-specific as to render the information useless since vehicles were on fire, and chunks of structure would still be coming lose and crashing to the ground.
To insist that fires are as likely as no fires is not logical IMHO.

 

[jaydeehess]

When the system was done... you know all the flammable substances? Water in pipes can also explode when heated... And Con Ed transformers are exploding all the time... even today.. and when Sandy hit.

I stand pat and your musings don't convince me but thanks for trying.

Because your musings are so much more credible?

Yes a steam explosion could occur if water carrying pipes were heated sufficiently. You expect that this would be powerful enough to cause structural damage to the building?

However, as pointed out time and again, one should be constrained by what is in evidence, not what might have been but for which there is no evidence. What IS in evidence is a probable failure of col 79 being the initial failure that led to the EPH coming down, what is then in evidence as a proximate cause for col 79 failure is fires in the vicinity of col 79, what was determined is that those fires would not fail the column directly, what was then determined was the probable thermal expansion of beams pushing a girder off its seat failing a section of flooring which then crashed onto weakened floors below and resulting in several floors failing.


Yes a failure of TT1 would look very much the same, yes a diesel fed fire may have supplied enough heat to cause a TT1 failure BUT there is no evidence of a proximate cause, ie. fires in the vicinity. That is why both FEMA and NIST did not pursue that line of investigation.

 

[DGM]

Yes a failure of TT1 would look very much the same, yes a diesel fed fire may have supplied enough heat to cause a TT1 failure BUT there is no evidence of a proximate cause, ie. fires in the vicinity. That is why both FEMA and NIST did not pursue that line of investigation.

I've been trying for a couple years now to discuss his evidence for this hypothesis. It always comes back to my belief. I've said it before, there's nothing implausible about his hypothesis, I want to see the compelling evidence to sway me in that direction. That's when it goes off the tracks.

 

[JSanderO]

No problem, I wasn't trying to convince you. (BTW: you don't convince me either)

ETA: There were no ConEd transformers near the floors you claimed.

The building has its own step down transformers down there. By the way did you notice the huge plume of black smoke which emerges from the very top of 1wtc right after the plane hit... what do you suppose this was?

Maybe an electrical explosion/fire cause?

Have a look and tell us what you think was burning up at the top.

 

[JSanderO]

I've been trying for a couple years now to discuss his evidence for this hypothesis. It always comes back to my belief. I've said it before, there's nothing implausible about his hypothesis, I want to see the compelling evidence to sway me in that direction. That's when it goes off the tracks.

I don't have access to the evidence assuming it exists... There is circumstantial evidence... but my point is there was no one reporting on that everything was OK in that region.... of was there? If the FDNY were surveying the building and reports are they believed it was in danger.... they must have had some SPECIFIC locations etc. Have you seen these? Surely FDNY had floors, times, conditions and so on in order to make a call... and probably looked at sensitive areas where fuel was stored as in the...... so what did they SPECIFICALLY say. Surely they would have surveyed this area?

Why did Cantor say that diesel fired likely did in the trusses? What was he smoking?

 

[1stClassAlan]

Typically, all parts of the structure are used for whatever load carrying is needed (Which is good engineering) The girders, beams and floor plates all would have been considered with regard to lateral stability etc.

Quite so and on the face of it with Built Up Plate members wieghing in at 1000lbs per foot, you'd think that would be good enough but as we all know - the thing fell down!

Let me add in my passing two penny worth upon our Mr Silversteins's comments about "redundancy" and the special qualities of WTC7 - take it with a pinch of salt. I don't think he has any more idea of what can be done with or to a building than my missus who is very fond of giving me blank looks if I bring my work home. He should leave all the technical stuff to others in his team but when pressed in interviews he has a habit of faux pas - which in the case of his infamous "pull it" has been jumped on by conspiracists.

No highrise building has ever been planned or built with a view to removing out whole floors - it's a fabulous undertaking ( if I'd have known about it back in 1989 I'd have come over and tried my damnest to get in on it!) I take my hat off to all those that made it work.

I hope everyone realises that the 3rd angle sketch of the stress frames and cantilevers is straight out of the NIST report and is their best opinion of how it was on 911 - an "as built" drawing as we say here - that would include all the 1989 refit.

Though the article I linked to mentioned 375 tons of extra steel - I'm sure that I've read of 300 odd tons coming OUT and 500 going back in during the refit ( notice it says the scrap was sold for 4c a pound but doesn't say how much?) This steelwork would have been for a whole rake of profiles - columns as well as beams ( please don't use the term "girder" - very non U!) commonsense dictates that you simply cannot take a floor out and just leave the old columns in place full of empty bolt holes where the connectors have been removed.

Here in the U.K. if you put a fuel tank inside an occupied office building - you'd be arrested! I think even the laxed N.Y. City Ordinances were modified for WTC to allow tanks full of diesel everywhere! That said, they were fed by double walled steel pipe - though I bow to anyone with specific knowledge of connections to the generator sets. Amazingly, the NIST reports seem to suggest that all or most of the fuel oil was accounted for in the recovery operations - I find this very hard to believe given the raging fires. To my mind, the supply line was severed by components of the North Tower crashing through it and the open end was interpreted by the control gear as demand - thus at least one fire was being fed by anything up to 75gals a minute.

 

[1stClassAlan]

By the way did you notice the huge plume of black smoke which emerges from the very top of 1wtc right after the plane hit... what do you suppose this was?

Maybe an electrical explosion/fire cause?

Have a look and tell us what you think was burning up at the top.

Even though it is as you say - circumstantial, there's not much doubt there must have been a hell of a lot of electrical equipment up there under the T.V antenna for it and the host of other services - together with a vast amount of heat roaring up from below. The speed of the fire spread was most alarming - as you say - only minutes after the plane hit, smoke was emerging from the roof. Of course failures of fire resistance are easy to blame on the shock impact but it didn't look good!

That said - I've not lifted the carpets in any 30 year old high rise here without finding cracks through the concrete ( particularly at the screed stops on floors ) that often resemble crazy paving! In one London building I could quite easily talk to my guys on the floor below. And there are nearly always multiple riser cupboards and floor piercings that would admit fire in a disaster but are never revealed unless there is one!

 

[JSanderO]

Quite so and on the face of it with Built Up Plate members wieghing in at 1000lbs per foot, you'd think that would be good enough but as we all know - the thing fell down!

Let me add in my passing two penny worth upon our Mr Silversteins's comments about "redundancy" and the special qualities of WTC7 - take it with a pinch of salt. I don't think he has any more idea of what can be done with or to a building than my missus who is very fond of giving me blank looks if I bring my work home. He should leave all the technical stuff to others in his team but when pressed in interviews he has a habit of faux pas - which in the case of his infamous "pull it" has been jumped on by conspiracists.

No highrise building has ever been planned or built with a view to removing out whole floors - it's a fabulous undertaking ( if I'd have known about it back in 1989 I'd have come over and tried my damnest to get in on it!) I take my hat off to all those that made it work.

I hope everyone realises that the 3rd angle sketch of the stress frames and cantilevers is straight out of the NIST report and is their best opinion of how it was on 911 - an "as built" drawing as we say here - that would include all the 1989 refit.

Though the article I linked to mentioned 375 tons of extra steel - I'm sure that I've read of 300 odd tons coming OUT and 500 going back in during the refit ( notice it says the scrap was sold for 4c a pound but doesn't say how much?) This steelwork would have been for a whole rake of profiles - columns as well as beams ( please don't use the term "girder" - very non U!) commonsense dictates that you simply cannot take a floor out and just leave the old columns in place full of empty bolt holes where the connectors have been removed.

Here in the U.K. if you put a fuel tank inside an occupied office building - you'd be arrested! I think even the laxed N.Y. City Ordinances were modified for WTC to allow tanks full of diesel everywhere! That said, they were fed by double walled steel pipe - though I bow to anyone with specific knowledge of connections to the generator sets. Amazingly, the NIST reports seem to suggest that all or most of the fuel oil was accounted for in the recovery operations - I find this very hard to believe given the raging fires. To my mind, the supply line was severed by components of the North Tower crashing through it and the open end was interpreted by the control gear as demand - thus at least one fire was being fed by anything up to 75gals a minute.

Good points... For adhernets of the column 79 failure... I am curious as to why the GIF of NIST looks so unlike the the real world... I would never confuse the model/gif for the real world event...

So why did they simulation fail so miserably?

 

[DGM]

Why did Cantor say that diesel fired likely did in the trusses? What was he smoking?

Were they covering ass? Come on, you know how this works. Funny thing, NIST really has no vested interest.

Any comment on what a "transformer vault" means in this case?

 

[1stClassAlan]

So why did they simulation fail so miserably?

Oh Ho! Don't start me on simulations! Every one I've viewed looks nothing more than a pretty video made by guys that knew the end result and have tried to make everything else fit - it just provides amunition for the lunatic fringe.