Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

[Reality Check]

Absolutely correct. Every part of that quote is correct. ...snipped irrelevant text....

Once again you state that a reference from Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems is correct!

Lands west of the Continental Divide of the USA, including the Great Basin, Sonoran, Mojave, and Colorado Plateau deserts, along with the Palouse Prairie grasslands of eastern Washington, western Montana, and northern Idaho, did not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13].

The relevant parts from reference 13 seem to be

... However, they were absent from many other portions of the Intermountain West such as the Great Basin Sagebrush deserts of Nevada, the desert grasslands of Arizona and elsewhere west of the Rockies (Reynolds et. al. 1982). ...
Further evidence to the absence or limited distribution of bison throughout the Intermountain West comes from the native vegetation itself. The native vegetation of these regions has no previous evolutionary experience or adaptation (Mack and Thompson, 1982) to persistent, heavy grazing and trampling.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

...snipped irrelevant text....

Sorry Reality Check,
You don't get to do that. You snipped the only relevant text and twisted my words to mean the opposite of what I said by taking them out of context. That is absolutely inappropriate and dishonest.

 

[Reality Check]

Sorry Reality Check,
You don't get to do that. ...

Red Baron Farms, you are repeating the inability to tell the difference between cattle and bison !

Absolutely correct. Every part of that quote is correct.

Everything after that is irrelevant because it is not about bison or their distribution as in the part of Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems that we are discussing.
You do not get to derail the current discussion of that paper. That is absolutely inappropriate and dishonest.

What is more "absolutely inappropriate and dishonest" is derailing the thread into things the reference does not mention as if every reference has to discuss everything!

ETA: The part of that quote (that you say is correct) which is relevant and supports the review paper is "Evidence suggests these major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals. The introduction of domestic livestock into these areas has had particularly negative impacts upon these landscapes."

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Everything after that is irrelevant

You snipped the relevant parts, then called it irrelevant. Ridiculous. Then twisted my words to make it seem the opposite of what I said. More ridiculous. And now you move the goal posts. Beyond shame. Absolutely ridiculous talking to a low down dishonest troll. The only reason I bother is that I won't accept dishonesty to be smearing a serious subject for whatever petty individual reason you have for doing it.

I already addressed the issue of Bison in post 412 and 419. No need repeating.

Now there is a legitimate scientific debate as to whether the reduction of the herbivore herds caused the environmental deterioration, or whether the environmental deterioration caused the reduction in herbivore herds. (which is the cause and which is the effect) Unfortunately you haven't a clue about the actual scientific debate. Nor is you dishonesty ever going to stimulate an honest addressing of that issue.

 

[Reality Check]

Red Baron Farms the subject is bison

You snipped the relevant parts, ....

I snipped the irrelevant parts because we are talking about bison, Red Baron Farms !

 

[Reality Check]

I already addressed the issue of Bison in post 412 and 419. No need repeating.

Wrong, Red Baron Farms.
Post 412 is a comment on Evolution in steppe with few large, hooved mammals, RN Mack, JN Thompson - American Naturalist, 1982 - JSTOR.
This is reference 9 in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

Lands west of the Continental Divide of the USA, including the Great Basin, Sonoran, Mojave, and Colorado Plateau deserts, along with the Palouse Prairie grasslands of eastern Washington, western Montana, and northern Idaho, did not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13].

The paper is cited as evidence about bison.
You then fantasize about introducing cattle to reproduce the herds of bison producing "instant ecosystem recovery", Red Baron Farms .
None of your references are about reproducing herds of bison. The only scientific reference mentions bison in two references.

Post 419 is you agreeing that "major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals" is correct. This is the assertion in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems !
That review paper cites Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison and the quote that you state is correct includes

In addition, bison were unable to colonize vast portions of the West due to a variety of factors. Evidence suggests these major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals. The introduction of domestic livestock into these areas has had particularly negative impacts upon these landscapes.

(my emphasis added twice)

 

[Red Baron Farms]

That review paper cites Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison and the quote that you state is correct includes

(my emphasis added twice)

So therefore it must be the gospel truth? Not just correlation but proof Savory's management improvements can't work?

 

[Reality Check]

Missed out your reply to

So what does it mean if we take Savory's hypothesis that we should duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA seriously?
The estimates of pre-Columbian bison numbers range from 30 to 75 million animals.
Cattle inventory (as of July 1, 2014): 95 million.
This suggests reducing domestic USA cattle numbers by at least 20 million and maybe up to a third!

ETA: This assumes that 1 cow == 1 bison.

which was the wishful thinking of: Only if we don't use our clever brains.
No, Red Baron Farms. You missed the point. The idiocy of seriously trying to duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA is that it means that we have to have similar numbers of animals, i.e. 30 to 75 million animals.
This is a reduction of 20 to 60 million animals (assuming 1 cow = 1 bison).
The smart thing to do if someone were obsessed with duplicating the bison era ecology is to get rid of the cattle and use bison !

 

[Reality Check]

So ...

So therefore you stated it is correct that
* "Evidence suggests these major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals" and
* "The introduction of domestic livestock into these areas has had particularly negative impacts upon these landscapes."
You still cannot understand that Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems is not about showing that HM cannot work - it is about listing the assumptions of HM that can be found out and noting that they are invalid. It is about clearing up misinformation that HM spreads. You agreed that the first assumption is invalid by agreeing with that quote.

 

[Reality Check]

The Savory Method Can Not Green Deserts or Reverse Climate Change

The Savory Method Can Not Green Deserts or Reverse Climate Change by David D. Briske, Brandon T. Bestelmeyer, Joel R. Brown, Samuel D. Fuhlendorf, and H. Wayne Polley
The invalid arguments from the TED video:
Invalid Argument 1: All Nonforested Lands Are Degraded
Invalid Argument 2: Rangelands Can Store All Fossil Fuel Carbon in the Atmosphere
Which takes a different path from the RealClimate article:

Credible estimates of the potential for rangeland C sequestration are generally less than 0.25 tons C per hectare per year, which is eight-fold less than Mr Savory’s claims would require.
...
Most estimates set the C sequestration potential of global rangelands between one and two billion tons per year, a significant amount to be sure, but hardly sufficient to offset current C emissions (50 billion tons in 2012).

Invalid Argument 3: Intensive Grazing is Necessary to Prevent Rangeland Degradation

 

[Red Baron Farms]

The idiocy of seriously trying to duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA is that it means that we have to have similar numbers of animals,

Evidence?

 

[Reality Check]

Evidence?

Red Baron Farms. You missed the assumption with that quote mining:

The idiocy of seriously trying to duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA is that it means that we have to have similar numbers of animals, i.e. 30 to 75 million animals.
This is a reduction of 20 to 60 million animals (assuming 1 cow = 1 bison).

The evidence that bison numbers were 30 to 75 million animals are in the literature as already cited to you.
The evidence of the current cattle numbers is easily found and has been linked to you.
The assumption is that 1 cow is equivalent to 1 bison.
Thus this is a reduction of 20 to 60 million cattle to match the bison numbers.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Red Baron Farms. You missed the assumption with that quote mining:

The evidence that bison numbers were 30 to 75 million animals are in the literature as already cited to you.
The evidence of the current cattle numbers is easily found and has been linked to you.
The assumption is that 1 cow is equivalent to 1 bison.
Thus this is a reduction of 20 to 60 million cattle to match the bison numbers.

You are assuming agriculture is limited by the wild template. But in every other aspect agriculture has dramatically improved this. A wild tomato is tiny in comparison to a modern cultivar. Domestic chickens lay many more eggs than their wild cousins. Wheat and grains produce far more food than wild grasses. The feed conversion ratio of pigs is incredibly higher than wild boar. Across the board in every area agriculture, whether it uses biomimicry or not, surpasses wild counterparts. So in order to make this assumption that we would be limited to the 30 to 75 million animals found at European colonization would need evidence. Especially considering where this template is tried, it increases stocking rates and total beef produced per acre over antiquated models, and even beats the CAFOs in terms of food produced per acre.

 

[Reality Check]

You are assuming agriculture is limited by the wild template. ..snipped irrelevant non-HM wishful thinking...

No, Red Baron Farms. This is an assumption of HM - that we need to return to a "herds of bison" ecology because of the false assumption that grasslands are adapted to large hooved animals: Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals. !
That means limiting the numbers to the numbers that HM claims that the grasslands were adapted for.

Do you want to add another untested, unscientific (and maybe unpublished) assumption to HM, Red Baron Farms? That magic will happen and millions of hectares of grassland can have their plant, insect and animal ecosystems changed to support more than the original herds of large, hooved animals (e.g. bison). In that case we will get to discussing that in a few decades D ), after you understand the scientific evidence that Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals and we discuss the other 4 assumptions falsified in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems.

My assumption is that 1 cow == 1 bison (I will add that this is in any environment, including the largely degraded ranched grasslands if you want). This is a reduction of 20 to 60 million cattle to match the bison numbers.

You are ignoring that grasslands have been degraded by the introduction of cattle. It is almost as if you never read Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems !

Lands grazed by livestock include 3.4 billion ha worldwide with 73% estimated to be suffering soil degradation [1]. The solution presented during Allan Savory’s February 2013 TED Talk was to use holistic management (HM) to reverse desertification and climate change [2].

 

[Red Baron Farms]

snipped lengthy strawman

Maybe learn what Biomimicry is first, then maybe any agricultural system that uses biomimicry won't be so easily confused in your mind to the natural fallacy. It is really amusing to see you use a strawman to build up an argument based on another logic fallacy. On top of that your base arguments are even flawed. Quite hilarious actually.

1) HM is not based on specifically only bison, nor does it require beef cattle.
2) The West did in fact have bison, and a whole lot of other large herbivores too in fact, and all were in decline long before Western colonization. Much of the megafauna is now extinct of course. But Bison were still there even after Western colonization. So were large herds of mule deer and other large herbivores. All of which are in decline, extinct or have dramatically lower numbers.
3) The Western grassland biomes have been in steady decline for thousands of years. Some would say that decline is what caused the megafauna extirpation and extinction, others would say the megafaunal extinctions are what caused the grasslands to decline. Savory uses the second model to base his form of biomimicry.
4) Cattle and sheep and other domestic species are not exact matches to the wild species. However, with human manipulation of their behavior, they can function as a substitute for lost niches, enabling the remaining non extinct portions of the ecosystem a chance to recover.
5) In either case, it is a huge improvement over the plow and combine, which only further increases habitat destruction.

 

[Reality Check]

..snipped ignorance....

You totally ignored my post and the science in favor of stating ignorance about the contents of Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems, Red Baron Farms.

1. Nowhere does the paper state that HM is based on specifically on only bison, nor that HM requires beef cattle.
   

   We address these five assumptions of HM with a focus on western North American arid and semiarid ecosystems, principally in the desert, steppe, grassland, and open conifer woodland biomes as described by [8]. We use the broad term, grassland, to be inclusive of these types.

2. The paper states that the West did in fact have bison !
   The paper also lists the evidence that not all of the West had significant numbers of bison.From 28 October 2014: Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.
3. The Western grassland biomes have been in steady change (not "decline") for thousands of years as stated in the paper. This is evidence against the HM assumption .
   

   The supposition that current western North American plant communities are adapted to livestock grazing because the region supported a diverse herbivore fauna during the Pleistocene epoch ignores that the plant communities have changed in the intervening time [16].

4. I know that cattle and sheep and other domestic species are not exact matches to the wild species. That is my assumption that allows an estimation that leads to a reduction of 20 to 60 million cattle to match the bison numbers.
5. The paper knows that cattle and sheep and other domestic species are not exact matches to the wild species.
   

   Lands west of the Continental Divide of the USA, including the Great Basin, Sonoran, Mojave, and Colorado Plateau deserts, along with the Palouse Prairie grasslands of eastern Washington, western Montana, and northern Idaho, did not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13].
   ...
   13. G. Wuerthner, “Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison,” in Proceedings of an International Symposium on Bison Ecology and Management in North America, L. Irby, L. Knight, and J. Knight, Eds., pp. 374–383, Bozeman, Mont, USA, June 1998.

6. Introduction of livestock (cattle, etc.) is in general bad for grasslands but obviously better than the "the plow and combine".
   

   Lands grazed by livestock include 3.4 billion ha worldwide with 73% estimated to be suffering soil degradation [1].

 

[Red Baron Farms]

For what reason are you repeating the false claims made by your sources? What do you suppose it gains you? I already showed you those claims like "Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals." are false or strawmen. I even used the citations from your own source to prove some of them false, that your own source misrepresented it's own citations. What do you expect to gain by repeating them?

 

[Reality Check]

For what reason are you repeating the false claims made by your sources? ...

Because you are lying about the claims being false, Red Baron Farms .
This could be because you cannot understand them. It could be because you are such a convert to HM that you are willing to deny them regardless of any science presented.
This is really simple: The assumption that grasslands are adapted to large hooved animals is falsified by the existence of grasslands with no significant numbers of large hooved animals .
Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.

You have presented no scientific evidence that all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals. The mere presence of large, hooved animals does not mean that a grassland adapted to need them.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Because you are lying about the claims being false, Red Baron Farms .

No your source made claims. I checked the citations used to make those claims, and those citations didn't say what your source or you claimed they said. Simple as that. But if you need more evidence of the coevolution of grasses and herbivores, or corresponding changes in the ecosystems, there is plenty, the pattern has been going on a long time.

Coevolution of Grasses and herbivores

Late Miocene advent of tall grassland paleosols in Oregon

Cenozoic Expansion of Grasslands and Climatic Cooling

 

[Reality Check]

...and those citations didn't say what your source or you claimed they said.

That is where the lie comes in, Red Baron Farms. You have not shown that the references do not support the paper.

I can read Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems where they make the points that you have not grasped:
* that some grasslands do not evolve with herds of large hooved animals (not herbivores in general) !
You still cannot grasp the simple fact that some grasslands did not have significant herds of large hooved animals. For example bison "only occurred in limited numbers across western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho" and dung beetles that follow herds are absent west of the Rockies.
* that the "supposition that current western North American plant communities are adapted to livestock grazing because the region supported a diverse herbivore fauna during the Pleistocene epoch ignores that the plant communities have changed in the intervening time".

Thank you for confirming one of the points in the paper with these citations - past grasslands are different from today !
Coevolution of Grasses and herbivores

Late Miocene advent of tall grassland paleosols in Oregon

Cenozoic Expansion of Grasslands and Climatic Cooling