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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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On the TMB test properties, I anticipate Chris Halkides will post an answer with some quote from some handbook (probably a non-source like those manuals quoted by Vecchiotti), possibly mentioning "protocols" instead of research, or maybe he will paraphrase and cite research conclusions that do not address the point, such as luminol false positives etc. I say this in advance expecting so because this is Prof.Halkides' modus operandi.

While we're rejecting things in advance based on known modus operandi, I wish to state that I know that the Italian supreme court is going to issue a foolish, embarrassing, illegal and generally retarded opinion next year.
 
Hi Mach,

I don't believe you have fully explained the non-adversarial inquisitional foundations of the Italian judicial system. I agree you have pointed out the fast-track trial path (apparently based on clause [sentence number] 9 on Article 111) and that the prosecutors are in the judiciary, but the constitutional validity of the transport of "judicial facts" that have not been examined by defendants from one (fast-track) trial, where they were not represented, to their own adversarial trial, is not clear to me. Could you expound a bit on the constitutional logic involved in this transport?

And doesn't clause 5 entitle the defendants at their adversarial trial to receive the electronic data files, the best evidence of the results from the DNA profile tests, for their defense purposes?

I look forward to your response.

For convenience, I have copied Article 111 below.

From the website of the Senate of the Italian Republic:

https://www.senato.it/documenti/repo...ne_inglese.pdf

{I have numbered and highlighted the sentences of Article 111 for ease of reading and reference.}

Art. 111

1) Jurisdiction is implemented through due process regulated by law.

2) All court trials are conducted with adversary proceedings and the parties are entitled to equal conditions before an impartial judge in third party position.
3) The law provides for the reasonable duration of trials.

4) In criminal law trials, the law provides that the alleged offender shall be
promptly informed confidentially of the nature and reasons for the charges
that are brought and shall have adequate time and conditions to prepare a
defence.

5) The defendant shall have the right to cross-examine or to have cross-examined before a judge the persons making accusations and to summon and examine persons for the defence in the same conditions as the prosecution, as well as the right to produce all other evidence in favour of the defence.
6) The defendant is entitled to the assistance of an interpreter in
the case that he or she does not speak or understand the language in which
the court proceedings are conducted.

7) In criminal law proceedings, the formation of evidence is based on the principle of adversary hearings.
8) The guilt of the defendant cannot be established on the basis of statements by persons who, out of their own free choice, have always voluntarily avoided undergoing cross-examination by the defendant or the defence counsel. 9) The law regulates the cases in which the formation of evidence does not
occur in an adversary proceeding with the consent of the defendant or
owing to reasons of ascertained objective impossibility or proven illicit
conduct.

10) All judicial decisions shall include a statement of reasons.

11) Appeals to the Court of Cassation in cases of violations of the law are
always allowed against sentences and against measures affecting personal
freedom pronounced by ordinary and special courts. This rule can only be
waived in cases of sentences by military tribunals in time of war.

12) Appeals to the Court of Cassation against decisions of the Council of State and the Court of Accounts are permitted only for reasons of jurisdiction.

Hi Mach,
I bumped this down to give those of us just beginning to understand Italian legal and judicial practices an opportunity to gain some information from your expertise.

I thank you in advance for your comments.
 
No tricks, Machiavelli. Stefanoni said if TMB was negative you could be sure it was not blood. That (or her incompetence) would explain why she carried out no confirmatory tests. What really needs to be explained is why you are still going on about luminol. The answer must be that your reasoning is at the same level as Massei's and some of the more foolish posters here who think that, because there was a lot of blood nearby, all positive luminol hits must be blood and that mere osmotic plausibility is the appropriate scientific standard. If this were the correct approach there would have been no need to conduct luminol testing at all since the presence of blood not visible to the naked eye could be inferred from other incriminating facts like the shower and the fake burglary etc

It's a trick, because you omit the different subjects we talk about. Stefanoni said not likely for TMB but this "likely vs. not likely" is true also for luminol; the difference is that it is far more true with luminol than with TMB, since luminol is far more sensitive and also more specific than TMB. I am amazed that people still try to battle this point: all what you should do is acknowledge you have no argument. Come on find literature about some substance that reacts with luminol and not with TMB. Just acknowledge you don't have any, and that your argument is list. Also, I think any rations perso can see that the bare footprint set is evidence because of its physical features beyond "chemical" arguments about the substance.
 
Hi Mach,
I bumped this down to give those of us just beginning to understand Italian legal and judicial practices an opportunity to gain some information from your expertise.

I thank you in advance for your comments.

Do they actually have 111 articles in their constitution? No wonder no one seems to know what the hell is going on.
 
What are your professional scientific merits that qualify to call it gibberish?

That doesn't answer my question. What are your scientific qualifications to spout such patent, self-imploding nonsense which any reasonably intelligent person can descry a mile away?

Me? I have two advanced degrees from a top 10 American university. And my father taught me well before I entered those halls to tell ***** from shinola.
 
While we're rejecting things in advance based on known modus operandi, I wish to state that I know that the Italian supreme court is going to issue a foolish, embarrassing, illegal and generally retarded opinion next year.

You already conceded that you won't acknowledge any verdict from any source if it implies that Knox is guilty, you wouldn't acknowledge even the ECHR.
 
It's a trick, because you omit the different subjects we talk about. Stefanoni said not likely for TMB but this "likely vs. not likely" is true also for luminol; the difference is that it is far more true with luminol than with TMB, since luminol is far more sensitive and also more specific than TMB. I am amazed that people still try to battle this point: all what you should do is acknowledge you have no argument. Come on find literature about some substance that reacts with luminol and not with TMB. Just acknowledge you don't have any, and that your argument is list. Also, I think any rations perso can see that the bare footprint set is evidence because of its physical features beyond "chemical" arguments about the substance.

I think that Italians should forget about TMB and just use luminol. After all, using two tests creates a chance of a contradictory results, and contradictory results can cause one to lose face. So, one test is better than two tests. QED.
 
There you have it, Prof. Halkides. Don't even try to reference any handbooks, manuals, protocols or research. Italian logic is impervious.

Yes, and on top of it, rather than coming from some medieval Umbrian redoubt wherein Machiavelli eagerly spins yarns worthy of Uncle Remus, the thinking from some of those manuals may emerge from Missouri, USA! For shame.
 
That doesn't answer my question. What are your scientific qualifications to spout such patent, self-imploding nonsense which any reasonably intelligent person can descry a mile away?

Me? I have two advanced degrees from a top 10 American university. And my father taught me well before I entered those halls to tell ***** from shinola.

Oh well, you say you are intelligent; if you say so, it must be true.
 
I think that Italians should forget about TMB and just use luminol. After all, using two tests creates a chance of a contradictory results, and contradictory results can cause one to lose face. So, one test is better than two tests. QED.

It's not contradictory. It's just a wasting of the sample.
 
You already conceded that you won't acknowledge any verdict from any source if it implies that Knox is guilty, you wouldn't acknowledge even the ECHR.

Did I? That was very accurate of me since she's innocent.

Anyway, the ECHR isn't going to determine Knox's guilt. It's going to decide whether Italy is guilty.
 
So, top 12 in the world?

Precisely. Toss in Oxford and Cambridge and we're done.

Of course, Sapienza is the best thing Italy has to offer on this front. But, given that it sponsors the highly questionable talents of Conti & Vecchiotti, even its merits are in doubt.
 
It's a trick, because you omit the different subjects we talk about. Stefanoni said not likely for TMB but this "likely vs. not likely" is true also for luminol; the difference is that it is far more true with luminol than with TMB, since luminol is far more sensitive and also more specific than TMB. I am amazed that people still try to battle this point: all what you should do is acknowledge you have no argument. Come on find literature about some substance that reacts with luminol and not with TMB. Just acknowledge you don't have any, and that your argument is list. Also, I think any rations perso can see that the bare footprint set is evidence because of its physical features beyond "chemical" arguments about the substance.

No, It doesn't work that way. Even if all presumptive tests give positive results, you still need to prove that the substance is actually blood (hence the presumptive). After you prove that it is blood, you must test the DNA to see who the blood came from.

Now, in this case it's even worse because there's a picture showing a scientific policeman, dressed in protecting clothing, stepping in a pool of blood. He could have easily tracked the blood around the house.

However, given that one of the presumptive tests gave a negative result we shouldn't presume that it is blood.
 
Hi Mach,
I bumped this down to give those of us just beginning to understand Italian legal and judicial practices an opportunity to gain some information from your expertise.

I thank you in advance for your comments.

What exactly your question is? Because, you see, I think the subjects you addressed in previous pages such a discussion about concepts like "inquisitorial" "adversarial" "civil law" etc., Italian constitutional wording etc. would be rather complex.
 
You already conceded that you won't acknowledge any verdict from any source if it implies that Knox is guilty, you wouldn't acknowledge even the ECHR.

Of course not. She and Rafaelle are not guilty so any contrary veredict is obviously unacceptable.
 
Precisely. Toss in Oxford and Cambridge and we're done.

Of course, Sapienza is the best thing Italy has to offer on this front. But, given that it sponsors the highly questionable talents of Conti & Vecchiotti, even its merits are in doubt.

La Sapienza is far from being one of the best Universities in Italy. Ranks are different depending on faculties but the average Sapienza tank is not that high.
 
It's a trick, because you omit the different subjects we talk about. Stefanoni said not likely for TMB but this "likely vs. not likely" is true also for luminol; the difference is that it is far more true with luminol than with TMB, since luminol is far more sensitive and also more specific than TMB. I am amazed that people still try to battle this point: all what you should do is acknowledge you have no argument. Come on find literature about some substance that reacts with luminol and not with TMB. Just acknowledge you don't have any, and that your argument is list. Also, I think any rations perso can see that the bare footprint set is evidence because of its physical features beyond "chemical" arguments about the substance.

Stefanoni said if TMB was negative you could be sure it's not blood. That is the only citation I need. Others far better qualified than me will bury you in citations as they have in the past (to no effect, suggesting your bias has overpowered your reason) As for the highlighted bit, you will need quite a bit to convince any reasonable person that Amanda's bare footprints in her own home, if not made in the victim's blood, are in any way suspicious (assuming, which I do not, her prints were detected at all).

Hey Diocletus! Just think! She cleaned up all her fingerprints (except one - the slut) but was happily padding barefoot around the place in the victim's blood.
 
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