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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Greetings!
About that Cats Blood/Crime Scene down below:
Stefano Bonassi's room has 2 beds, side by side.
Amanda recalled: Nice guy, has a really pretty girlfriend.
(Probably a reason for only his bedroom having 2 side by side beds, my opinion only)

This is the bedroom with blood on the mattress sheet and the comforter.
There are Crime Scene markers in this room.
The comforter is shoved up to the top of the bed.
The blood on the comforter, with straight lines on it,
differs a lot from the blood drops on the bedsheet,
you've seen the pics the other day.

Where is the sheet?

Which markers are in this room?

I believe it was only Giacomo's bedroom door that was locked,
and broken into, it looks like the door was kicked in by the cops.

Meredith had Giacomo's keys. They were found upstairs in her flat.
Weird how only Meredith's room was locked upstairs,
and her new Italian boyfriends bedroom was the only 1 found locked down below.
His bed is made, some things are on it.


Beside Stefano's bedroom,
only this locked bedroom has Crime Scene markers in on.
On the floor.

Which markers?

A thought: what if the outside blood drops are going UP the stairs, meaning that the blood was diluted downstairs?

What if our hero was carrying a wet bundle of clothing, perhaps wrapped up in a sheet???
 
I cannot understand why it is so easy for certain people to embrace this absurd ridiculous scenario involving Rudy, Raffaele and Amanda. Especially when not only do the facts and evidence doesn't lead you to this idea, but statistics don't either. There is nothing that ties these three suspects together. Amanda met Rudy two weeks before very casually with not much more than a couple of words passed between each other. Rudy was gone for about a full week of the two between then and the murder. There isn't a call or text between them ever and the same is true for Raffaele. Amanda barely knew Raffaele.

How is it likely that these three would "together" murder Meredith and go on their separate ways? It's not just unlikely, it's downright laughable and absurd.

Find another crime in history that remotely resemble this crime. Good luck.

Machiavelli points to the idea that Rudy did this alone is absurd because he really hasn't been known to have a violent history. And he fully admits that Amanda and Raffale don't either. He basically suggest that "group dynamic" led the three of them to commit this murder together. But that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The "group dynamic" would have had the opposite effect. It would far more likely "inhibit" as oppose to promote violent behavior. And the fact that none of these people knew each other very well and Amanda barely spoke Italian also would be an inhibiting factor. They are not likely to murder Merdith over 300 Euros to split between the three of them...an amount that is pocket change to Raffaele and not much more to Amanda, especially considering they would have to split it 3 ways. And even if Amanda did not like Meredith (no actual evidence of this either) but if she didn't, there is no reason for Raffaele or Rudy to help Amanda kill Meredith. They have no problem with Meredith.

I DON'T GET IT.
A related question is likelihood of getting away with it.
Absolute zero. This would be known to A and R and their post murder behaviour would be totally different if they had been drawn into this disaster. I know plenty of people who are unable to tell a white lie that will benefit everybody, let alone murder which benefits nobody.
 
(...)
Mach accepts "but if I were a prosecutor I would assume that the cross-questioning of a person who does not intend to tell the truth would not bring any further information about what happened" does Mach accept that in this circumstance it is wrong of Nencini to rely on Guede for a motivation. Nencini p334 translation "the fact that Rudy Hermann Guede insisted on repeating this circumstance in every one of his interrogations, together with the certain proof that the sum of 300 euros had in fact been set aside by the victim for the payment of her share of rent, makes the story of the Ivorian objectively credible" both because the testimony had not been given in their trial giving no opportunity to examine Guede, and because Guede should be regarded as unreliable in all he says.

I don't have made up my mind on the point yet, as for what concerns Guede's reliability on the 300 euros cash, frankly. I would need to re-read Nencini and pay attention to the specific point. But I can say preliminary that your two questions have two answers:
1) "because the testimony had not been given in their trial giving no opportunity to examine Guede", the answer to this question is: No. I disagree with you, this is not a valid reason, in my opinion, as for the law. A piece of information or a finding can be used in a trial whenever there are reasons to believe it truthful, also when it comes from somewhere else, like from some other venue or from some other trial. Judicial findings from other trials specifically can be used in cases different from the original ones. No, there is no requirement that the original source of the evidence is "examined" in a cross questioning as if he were a witness.

2) the second reason instead, that is "because Guede should be regarded as unreliable in all he says" is much more serious. Though I am not sure this can be considered universally valid; there might be some circumstances in which there is reason to believe that some information from an unreliable person is relevant, if such information happens to be crossed and corroborated. For example, this happens if it's about a detail which the witness was not supposed to know about.

On this particular point, I am not sure, but I acknowledge that Guede's telling the story of Meredith argueing over missing cash is a bit peculiar on the part of Rudy Guede, since there is no reason why he should know about a specific 300 sum and there is no reason why he should put this unnecessary element into his story. The fact that he puts it costantly into each one of his stories despite their changes and mutual cotnradictions, it's peculiar and suggests that maybe there a reason for this.

However I don't know the reason. It might have to do with Knox's 300 euros allegedly missing from her drawer. This money happens to be a much peculiar element of the story also in Amanda Knox's acount of facts, because she says she forgot to check about them. Which is intrinsically not credible and contradictory with other parts of her story.
The 300 € in Guede's story might also tehoretically be explained by other reasons, for example maybe it was Guede himself who stole the money and this is why he knows about them.
So the element exists, it is true that it has some peculiarity because it is present in all Guede's stories, it is unnecessary and he is not supposed to be aware about it, but it is also ambiguous, in my opinion, if taken by itself in isolation, at least until not crossed with Knox's testimony. Taken by itself it could be pointing in opposite directions. However if you cross it with the oddity of Knox contradicting herself about the money in her drawer, well, it casts a peculiar light; I'm not sure but I think once you assume Knox is guilty (and you also observe her unacounted for cash flow and her frequentation of drug dealers), the missing 300€ can be used as part of the picture to understand something of the motives in play in the murder, to build an explanatory conjecture.
 
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A piece of information or a finding can be used in a trial whenever there are reasons to believe it truthful, also when it comes from somewhere else, like from some other venue or from some other trial. Judicial findings from other trials specifically can be used in cases different from the original ones. No, there is no requirement that the original source of the evidence is "examined" in a cross questioning as if he were a witness.

Uh oh. I foresee trouble in paradise.
 
However I don't know the reason. It might have to do with Knox's 300 euros allegedly missing from her drawer. This money happens to be a much peculiar element of the story also in Amanda Knox's acount of facts, because she says she forgot to check about them. Which is intrinsically not credible and contradictory with other parts of her story.
The 300 € in Guede's story might also tehoretically be explained by other reasons, for example maybe it was Guede himself who stole the money and this is why he knows about them.
So the element exists, it is true that it has some peculiarity because it is present in all Guede's stories, it is unnecessary and he is not supposed to be aware about it, but it is also ambiguous, in my opinion, if taken by itself in isolation, at least until not crossed with Knox's testimony. Taken by itself it could be pointing in opposite directions. However if you cross it with the oddity of Knox contradicting herself about the money in her drawer, well, it casts a peculiar light; I'm not sure but I think once you assume Knox is guilty (and you also observe her unacounted for cash flow and her frequentation of drug dealers), the missing 300€ can be used as part of the picture to understand something of the motives in play in the murder, to build an explanatory conjecture.

What nonsense - there is no evidence of Amanda ever taking any drugs apart from cannabis - and even this she got from her upstanding and responsible flatmates. Nobody has ever come forward to say that they have seen Amanda spangled and gurning her head off. You obviously know absolutely nothing about how young people use drugs - but think if you shout 'sex and drugs' loud enough, it will smear her name so that people think she is also guilty of murder.

Really? Where do you get this stuff from? It's just bad trashy tabloid fiction and not worthy of Take a Break magazine
 
As I am not in a position to gainsay any of this I will confine myself to the observation that it seems mighty strange that Bongiorno would be so hotly critical of Mignini for not scheduling any trial questioning if in fact this is something for the defence to do. Surely, it should have been the other way round: Mignini should have submitted that it was outrageous that Sollecito had stayed out of the 'witness box' (not sure you have those either) and clear evidence of his guilt!!

Anyway, we can agree that because Amanda Knox did volunteer to be questioned (both in December '07 and at trial) she must be innocent, which more or less wraps up this series of threads. Thank you everybody! It has been most stimulating. :)

Via condios muchacho.
 
A thought: what if the outside blood drops are going UP the stairs, meaning that the blood was diluted downstairs?

What if our hero was carrying a wet bundle of clothing, perhaps wrapped up in a sheet???

What do we think the effect might be if we bundle up in a sheet some bloody clothes that have been rinsed off in a shower. Say some of the wetness strains through the sheet. Then, we have bloody water that has been strained through cloth. What effect might that have on the "effluent"? Would the DNA-containing white blood cells perhaps be removed? What would the staining properties be when the fluid drips onto a surface? Would the red blood cells for some reason wick to the edge of the stain?

Here's my scenario: Rudy, in a state of semi-shock, goes into the downstairs apt. to clean up and get his wits back. He is holding a wrap over his hand, which has been cut. Maybe the wrap rubs on the lightswitch, leaving a small amount of blood. Rudy goes to rip a sheet off the bed to bundle up his bloody clothes. When he does this, the wrap comes off of his hand and blood drips on the mattress pad. He places the sheet on the ground and goes into the shower. He rinses off his bloody stuff, and puts it in the sheet (on the ground), where some water starts to come off, and it filters through the sheet leaving the big stain on the floor. He bundles everything up, and leaves, going up the stairs where the bloody water continues to come out of the bundles, leaving the stains on the steps.

This scenario requires him to have obtained a change of clothes downstairs.

The bloody drips that have been filtered through the sheets have low levels of DNA, because the white blood cells have been filtered out and the blood is diffuse.
 
I don't have made up my mind on the point yet, as for what concerns Guede's reliability on the 300 euros cash, frankly. I would need to re-read Nencini and pay attention to the specific point. But I can say preliminary that your two questions have two answers:
1) "because the testimony had not been given in their trial giving no opportunity to examine Guede", the answer to this question is: No. I disagree with you, this is not a valid reason, in my opinion, as for the law. A piece of information or a finding can be used in a trial whenever there are reasons to believe it truthful, also when it comes from somewhere else, like from some other venue or from some other trial. Judicial findings from other trials specifically can be used in cases different from the original ones. No, there is no requirement that the original source of the evidence is "examined" in a cross questioning as if he were a witness.

2) the second reason instead, that is "because Guede should be regarded as unreliable in all he says" is much more serious. Though I am not sure this can be considered universally valid; there might be some circumstances in which there is reason to believe that some information from an unreliable person is relevant, if such information happens to be crossed and corroborated. For example, this happens if it's about a detail which the witness was not supposed to know about.

On this particular point, I am not sure, but I acknowledge that Guede's telling the story of Meredith argueing over missing cash is a bit peculiar on the part of Rudy Guede, since there is no reason why he should know about a specific 300 sum and there is no reason why he should put this unnecessary element into his story. The fact that he puts it costantly into each one of his stories despite their changes and mutual cotnradictions, it's peculiar and suggests that maybe there a reason for this.

However I don't know the reason. It might have to do with Knox's 300 euros allegedly missing from her drawer. This money happens to be a much peculiar element of the story also in Amanda Knox's acount of facts, because she says she forgot to check about them. Which is intrinsically not credible and contradictory with other parts of her story.
The 300 € in Guede's story might also tehoretically be explained by other reasons, for example maybe it was Guede himself who stole the money and this is why he knows about them.
So the element exists, it is true that it has some peculiarity because it is present in all Guede's stories, it is unnecessary and he is not supposed to be aware about it, but it is also ambiguous, in my opinion, if taken by itself in isolation, at least until not crossed with Knox's testimony. Taken by itself it could be pointing in opposite directions. However if you cross it with the oddity of Knox contradicting herself about the money in her drawer, well, it casts a peculiar light; I'm not sure but I think once you assume Knox is guilty (and you also observe her unacounted for cash flow and her frequentation of drug dealers), the missing 300€ can be used as part of the picture to understand something of the motives in play in the murder, to build an explanatory conjecture.

This is completely asinine. The reason Rudy knows about the $300 Euro is because he has it in pocket. Seriously Mach? This is the depth of your intelligence? It reminds of the great detective Mignini who figured that since there was blood in both the murder room and bathroom but nothing in the hall, the only possible conclusion was a that clean up had occurred. Unbelievable!!!
 
This is completely asinine. The reason Rudy knows about the $300 Euro is because he has it in pocket. Seriously Mach? This is the depth of your intelligence? It reminds of the great detective Mignini who figured that since there was blood in both the murder room and bathroom but nothing in the hall, the only possible conclusion was a that clean up had occurred. Unbelievable!!!

It really is Mr Bean-ini :D
 
On this particular point, I am not sure, but I acknowledge that Guede's telling the story of Meredith argueing over missing cash is a bit peculiar on the part of Rudy Guede, since there is no reason why he should know about a specific 300 sum and there is no reason why he should put this unnecessary element into his story. The fact that he puts it costantly into each one of his stories despite their changes and mutual cotnradictions, it's peculiar and suggests that maybe there a reason for this.

However I don't know the reason. It might have to do with Knox's 300 euros allegedly missing from her drawer. This money happens to be a much peculiar element of the story also in Amanda Knox's acount of facts, because she says she forgot to check about them. Which is intrinsically not credible and contradictory with other parts of her story.
The 300 € in Guede's story might also tehoretically be explained by other reasons, for example maybe it was Guede himself who stole the money and this is why he knows about them.
So the element exists, it is true that it has some peculiarity because it is present in all Guede's stories, it is unnecessary and he is not supposed to be aware about it, but it is also ambiguous, in my opinion, if taken by itself in isolation, at least until not crossed with Knox's testimony. Taken by itself it could be pointing in opposite directions. However if you cross it with the oddity of Knox contradicting herself about the money in her drawer, well, it casts a peculiar light; I'm not sure but I think once you assume Knox is guilty (and you also observe her unacounted for cash flow and her frequentation of drug dealers), the missing 300€ can be used as part of the picture to understand something of the motives in play in the murder, to build an explanatory conjecture.

This is total nonsense. There is no reason for Guede not to be aware of the 300 Euros if he took them, which is likely as there is no reason for him not to take case if Rudy is a burglar..which the evidence does point. Also, there is no evidence of Amanda buy drugs from ANYONE EVER. She admits smoking a little cannabis, but others bought it for her. There is no evidence that he took any other drugs either. Why do you and others that believe in guilt find it necessary to imagine these things?
 
Well, if he did, I suppose it could be a place to "hide out," collect his thoughts and get further rinsed off.

What was he doing from 9:30 to 10:00?

Any suggestion of someone rinsing off down there? I find the whole downstairs thing bizarre. And I have no idea what he was doing between 9.30 and 10. Chatting to Curatolo in Piazza thungummy?
 
Why would Rudy go downstairs?

Why would Guede go downstairs? Covered in blood too. Why, if someone really had gone downstaits covered in blood would the cops be covering it up at all, let alone from the word go?

1. Maybe for a change of clean men's clothes, or clean clothes that would fit.

2. Anything that distinguishes Guede from Amanda and Raf is bad for Guede, bad for Mignini's theory of a group crime, and bad for the cops if they are protecting Guede for whatever reason.

3. How do we know when the police decided the evidence downstairs would not be useful? They did test the blood drops, returned human profiles, but chose not to disclose them. Stefanoni is on video demanding the results of a "presumed semen" stain, but those test results have never surfaced either. I've argued the police knew GUede MO upon first arriving at the crime scene, realized Guede might be involved, and that they themselves might have some 'explaining' to do for springing Guede from Milan and bringing him back to Perugia just 5 days earlier.

4. But most importantly, there is a trail of blood evidence that has been DNA tested and come back with a human profile. Ought we not first ask what the evidence shows Guede did do, before asking "why would he do it?".
 
Where is the sheet?

Which markers are in this room?



Which markers?

A thought: what if the outside blood drops are going UP the stairs, meaning that the blood was diluted downstairs?
What if our hero was carrying a wet bundle of clothing, perhaps wrapped up in a sheet???
.
I have been pondering that same question but I am having trouble understanding how in that scenario Rudy would have made the bloody bare foot print made on the bathmat upstairs. Do you think he would have made it before, or after going downstairs?

Cody
.
 
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He basically suggest that "group dynamic" led the three of them to commit this murder together.

I think "group dynamic" is like "rape prank", "osmosis" and "hazing", a made-up term which sounds like it means something, but actually means nothing at all. It's a way of sounding like you have a coherent story when in fact you have some noises you are making to cover a huge gap in the narrative.
 
Where is the sheet?

Which markers are in this room?



Which markers?

A thought: what if the outside blood drops are going UP the stairs, meaning that the blood was diluted downstairs?

What if our hero was carrying a wet bundle of clothing, perhaps wrapped up in a sheet???

Another Great Question. Especially if Boyfriend's keys were found upstairs. (If so were those keys tested for prints and DNA?).
 
This is completely asinine. The reason Rudy knows about the $300 Euro is because he has it in pocket. Seriously Mach? This is the depth of your intelligence? It reminds of the great detective Mignini who figured that since there was blood in both the murder room and bathroom but nothing in the hall, the only possible conclusion was a that clean up had occurred. Unbelievable!!!
Maybe Mach is softening people up for a big surprise, he is switching to the winning team. (winning on using reasoning strategies employed by three year olds up).
 
I think "group dynamic" is like "rape prank", "osmosis" and "hazing", a made-up term which sounds like it means something, but actually means nothing at all. It's a way of sounding like you have a coherent story when in fact you have some noises you are making to cover a huge gap in the narrative.

I can see where a "group dynamic" would lead a youngster to commit a crime to belong to a gang or another group of older delinquents. Or maybe a cop who turns his back when another cop is beating up or framing a suspect. But that is about belonging to a group. There is no cohesive group in this case. These people barely knew each other and had little reason to go along with each other in committing a crime. If the three were together and one of them killed Meredith, they would certainly turn on each other at the earliest opportunity.

I really think these judges are STUPID...STUPID...STUPID.
 
I can see where a "group dynamic" would lead a youngster to commit a crime to belong to a gang or another group of older delinquents. Or maybe a cop who turns his back when another cop is beating up or framing a suspect. But that is about belonging to a group. There is no cohesive group in this case. These people barely knew each other and had little reason to go along with each other in committing a crime. If the three were together and one of them killed Meredith, they would certainly turn on each other at the earliest opportunity.

I really think these judges are STUPID...STUPID...STUPID.

I think there are several group dynamics at play in this case actually . . . .
The group dynamic of the police. If not for the group dynamic, they would not have hunted down Amanda and Raff for a crime they did not commit.
There is a group dynamic with the judiciary as well. An unwillingness to admit that they are wrong.
 
I think there are several group dynamics at play in this case actually . . . .
The group dynamic of the police. If not for the group dynamic, they would not have hunted down Amanda and Raff for a crime they did not commit.
There is a group dynamic with the judiciary as well. An unwillingness to admit that they are wrong.

I'm with you there. You might want to include the crazies at PMF and TJMK too.
 
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