Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

Thanks, it's evidence that he likes fights.

Lots of people like fights. But the point was to prove he was violent. When is that evidence coming?

When he has videos of fights

Again, lots of people like fights. Not proof of violence.

and texts about the fights he's in

Have you established those were truthful accounts of actual fights yet? Because I must have missed that post.

And remember, we'll need that evidence since we can't even believe what a woman says when she admits to the perjury we know she committed.

and his girlfriend complains he likes fighting too much

Cite?

he gets in trouble at school for fighting

Cite?

... at this point its obvious he likes fighting.

Well, we know he's at least watched one fight and has bragged about fights that may or may not have occurred in a text message to a friend.

Not very compelling stuff when trying to establish what a violent thug he is.

Surely you must have something better than this?

Since Shellie Zimmerman's admission that she committed perjury isn't enough for us to believe she committed perjury, and a sworn affidavit from a law enforcement officer isn't enough for us to believe Zimmerman assaulted him, we're dealing with a very high standard of evidence.

So what else you got?

 

[johnny karate]

What else do you want me to tell you except that I don't find it convincing ?

Well, you could make an argument indicating why I'm wrong. But that's up to you. I'm content to remain in a state of being mutually unconvinced.

 

[Belz...]

Well, you could make an argument indicating why I'm wrong.

I didn't say you were wrong. I said I'm not convinced that he should be found guilty.

But that's up to you. I'm content to remain in a state of being mutually unconvinced.

Unconvinced by what ? My unconvincedness ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Lots of people like fights. But the point was to prove he was violent. When is that evidence coming?

Again, lots of people like fights. Not proof of violence.

Have you established those were truthful accounts of actual fights yet? Because I must have missed that post.

And remember, we'll need that evidence since we can't even believe what a woman says when she admits to the perjury we know she committed.

I don't know why you keep conflating the legal requirements for perjury, versus my opinion that someone is a thug ?

Cite?
Cite?

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/174-defendant-s-3rd-supplemental-discovery

Well, we know he's at least watched one fight and has bragged about fights that may or may not have occurred in a text message to a friend.

Not very compelling stuff when trying to establish what a violent thug he is.

Surely you must have something better than this?

Since Shellie Zimmerman's admission that she committed perjury isn't enough for us to believe she committed perjury, and a sworn affidavit from a law enforcement officer isn't enough for us to believe Zimmerman assaulted him, we're dealing with a very high standard of evidence.

So what else you got?

I don't know why you keep conflating the legal requirements for perjury, versus my opinion that someone is a thug ?

Is there any evidence denying TM liked fighting ?

I'm sorry you find the evidence he liked fighting lacking, but I don't see anything to the contrary ?

 

[Unabogie]

Is there any evidence denying TM liked fighting ?

I'm sorry you find the evidence he liked fighting lacking, but I don't see anything to the contrary ?

Ahem...

The default state we are all in is innocent.

To claim that we are all simply "not guilty" of crimes, but not innocent, is simply absurd.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Of course we do. Just imagine what Zimmerman's supporters would say if it were disclosed that Trayvon Martin had the following rap sheet.

• Assault against a law enforcement officer.
• Rape and child molestation
• Domestic abuse
• Kicking a dog
• Road rage including death threats and stalking
• Barricading himself in a home with a bag full of guns, refusing to allow police inside
• And of course, shooting and killing someone who wasn't armed, while claiming he was in fear for his life.

Seriously, is there any doubt about how such a list would be used to support Zimmerman? But on the other side, Trayvon Martin wrote on his locker, got busted with weed, and skipped classes.

THUG!!!

We will have to use our imagination, since neither GZ or TM has that rap sheet.

It's funny how you keep talking about my "standards" of evidence, yet you accept accusations as proof ?

You ask for evidence of violence, and I point out that he got suspended from school for fighting, and you ignore it.

I also missed your answer to this question:

So...let's see.
If I say GZ is also a thug, you will agree TM is a thug ?
Is that how this works ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Ahem...

I'm sorry - are people frequently declared thugs in a court of law ?

Or are you simply continuing to conflate 2 different issues.

 

[Belz...]

Say, Elvis, you haven't addressed my point that pot possession isn't violence, yet.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Say, Elvis, you haven't addressed my point that pot possession isn't violence, yet.

You mean you weren't using humor there too ? That was evidence of the criminal part.

 

[Belz...]

That was evidence of the criminal part.

You know the post is still there, right ? Here it is:

Violence? What violence?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school
Trayvon Martin, the teenager whose shooting death has sparked a national uproar, was suspended from school last month for having a baggie that contained marijuana residue in his book bag, a family spokesman said Monday.

So:
Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

What "criminal part" ? The entirety of the quote is about violence.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You know the post is still there, right ? Here it is:



What "criminal part" ? The entirety of the quote is about violence.

I was uncrossing out the suspended from school for drugs.

and this part was the criminal part:

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

 

[Belz...]

I was uncrossing out the suspended from school for drugs.

and this part was the criminal part:

I repeat: you were answering the part you quoted, which does not mention anything but violence. At least admit that you misquoted.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I repeat: you were answering the part you quoted, which does not mention anything but violence. At least admit that you misquoted.

It was a fast moving exchange. My post could have been clearer.

 

[Mumbles]

I'll be careful here:

There' actually a major difference between a schoolyard fight, and a street fight.

You don't expect to be killed in a schoolyard fight. You throw punches, hopefully you win, someone breaks the fight up, the end.

A serious street fight is different. You can get killed in this scenario (as Martin was). A fight with a stranger is actually much more serious, and much more dangerous, than a fight against someone in school.

So, I'll say right out. Let's say that Martin got into schoolyard fights. That is *not* evidence that he tried to kill Zimmerman.So, years later, we still have no evidence that Martin was this violent lunatic that we're told he was - but we do have strong evidence that Zimmerman is a lunatic.

Hm.

 

[johnny karate]

I didn't say you were wrong. I said I'm not convinced that he should be found guilty.

Fair enough.

Unconvinced by what ? My unconvincedness ?

If all you are saying is that you are unconvinced, then I accept that.

 

[Belz...]

Well, my unconvincedness my not be convincing, either.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't know why you keep conflating the legal requirements for perjury, versus my opinion that someone is a thug ?

No one is talking about the legal requirements for perjury. We’re talking about that fact that Shellie Zimmerman admitted she committed perjury, and how that wasn’t enough to believe that she actually did commit perjury. And we’re comparing that to your insistence that what a teenage boy texts to his friends must be accepted as the truth.

I don't know why you keep conflating the legal requirements for perjury, versus my opinion that someone is a thug ?

And I don’t know why you insist I’m doing that. I am clearly not.

Is there any evidence denying TM liked fighting ?

You’ve provided evidence that Martin likes fights. I don’t see where you’ve provided evidence he likes fighting, as in actually participating in actual fights. And you certainly haven’t provided evidence that he was violent.

I'm sorry you find the evidence he liked fighting lacking, but I don't see anything to the contrary ?

I’m sorry… did you just imply I need to provide evidence Martin wasn’t violent. That’s a laugh.

It’s up to you to prove Martin was violent, and it’s up to you to do so by the same standards you hold everyone else to.

So I’ll ask you for, what… like the fifth time? If we can’t believe Shellie Zimmerman when she admits publicly to committing perjury regarding an actual documented occurrence of perjury, why must we then believe what a teenage boy texts to his friends about fights we don’t know even occurred?

 

[johnny karate]

We will have to use our imagination, since neither GZ or TM has that rap sheet.

That’s a good point. You keep accusing Martin of criminality, but you have also said we are all innocent until actually convicted of a crime.

So is Martin not then innocent of all crimes?

You ask for evidence of violence, and I point out that he got suspended from school for fighting, and you ignore it.

Hey, speaking of ignoring things, I asked you to cite this claim and you didn’t.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, my unconvincedness my not be convincing, either.

No, I'm convinced.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No one is talking about the legal requirements for perjury. We’re talking about that fact that Shellie Zimmerman admitted she committed perjury, and how that wasn’t enough to believe that she actually did commit perjury. And we’re comparing that to your insistence that what a teenage boy texts to his friends must be accepted as the truth.

And I don’t know why you insist I’m doing that. I am clearly not.

You’ve provided evidence that Martin likes fights. I don’t see where you’ve provided evidence he likes fighting, as in actually participating in actual fights. And you certainly haven’t provided evidence that he was violent.

Fighting and liking to fight is inherently violent.

I’m sorry… did you just imply I need to provide evidence Martin wasn’t violent. That’s a laugh.

It’s up to you to prove Martin was violent, and it’s up to you to do so by the same standards you hold everyone else to.

So I’ll ask you for, what… like the fifth time? If we can’t believe Shellie Zimmerman when she admits publicly to committing perjury regarding an actual documented occurrence of perjury, why must we then believe what a teenage boy texts to his friends about fights we don’t know even occurred?

Oh, I see. I was wrong. Shellie Zimmerman committed perjury, because she said so.

TM likes fighting because he said so.