Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

I think the prosecution did a pretty poor job of connecting the dots, and could have done more with the evidence we have. For instance, they could have really hammered on the missing minutes and the impossibility of Zimmerman's story of walking to look for an address. There's about four missing minutes, and during one interview, Zimmerman claims that by the time he hung up with NEN, he was already halfway to his truck. Based on this, they could have cemented in the jury's mind that not only did Zimmerman lie about what he was doing, that he most certainly did continue his hunt for the "suspect". Placing more of the blame on Zimmerman for any confrontation they had, they could have then peppered the police with questions about whether or not Zimmerman identified himself, which he didn't. Then they could have informed the jury of Martin's right to self-defense under Florida law. This would have correctly placed the blame on Zimmerman for any scuffle the two had. Then they could have shown how Zimmerman exaggerated his injuries and shot in either anger or panic, when his life was never in danger, and Martin was exercising legal self-defense against an unknown stalker. And for godsake, I assumed they had a reason for playing all of Zimmerman's self-serving story but they didn't. And the Sanford PD were completely in the tank for the defense. They should have known this and planned accordingly. They were one of the worst prepared prosecutors I can recall.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/partnerships_and_outreach/community_outreach/dcla/2010/jacksonville

Mr. Bernie de la Rionda serves as an Assistant State’s Attorney in the Fourth Judicial Circuit of Florida. In Florida, Mr. de la Rionda’s reputation as an exceptional prosecutor is legendary. In his 27 years of service, he has had more than 250 jury trials, 67 of which were homicide cases. During the last two years, from 2009 to 2010, Mr. de la Rionda was the lead counsel in five homicide trials, all of which were first-degree murder cases. Furthermore, in 22 cases he was successful in obtaining a death penalty recommendation and sentence.

Yes, it's really too bad BDLR was such a poor prosecutor...

 

[Cylinder]

We have a story where Martin spots a black gun located at Zimmerman's back...

His firearm was carried at the 3 o'clock position.

 

[johnny karate]

https://www.google.com/#q=define:+thug
thug
THəɡ/
noun
1.a violent person, especially a criminal.
synonyms: ruffian, hooligan, vandal, hoodlum, gangster, villain, criminal;

syn·o·nym
ˈsinəˌnim/
noun
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language
Evidence:
Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

He clearly engages in criminal and violent behaviors. The sum total of all that adds up to me as thuggish behavior. And all that behavior has been previously discussed in the thread.

What I called him a juvenile delinquent, or vandal or hoodlum, would you disagree? Those are synonyms for thug.
But somehow thug crosses some line I am not aware of.

Perhaps that is too harsh. Perhaps he was just a "thug-in-training" ? A wannabe-thug ?

I have two teenagers. I know where I believe the line to be between "merely skipping school" and "superficially associating yourself with a lifestyle." I can only imagine what kind of behaviors it would take for me to kick my own child out of my house. IMO, and based on my parenting experience with teenagers, TM crossed that line from "not an angel" to thug.

I can see your point if you don't believe that all adds up to being a thug, and we can agree to disagree. I'm not sure why it's all that important. I simply don't see where you have made a compelling argument that I should say " you know what, I was wrong, I don't actually think he meets the actual standards for being a thug"

Well, if all you're going to do is ignore my challenges to the relevance and veracity of your evidence, then of course you won't find my argument compelling. You can't be compelled by something you refuse to acknowledge.

But for the record, this is not a case of "agree to disagree". This is a case of one person not arguing in good faith or with a uniform standard of evidence.

So believe what you want, post your beliefs, and I'll keep exposing them for the biased hypocrisy that they are.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think we can establish that.

I've laid out my case pretty clearly, and cited the relevant law. If you disagree, please, make an argument instead of just an outright dismissal.

I don't see how, given the evidence we have.

Because the theshold of guilt for manslaughter is much lower than murder.

 

[johnny karate]

He says mistake, you say history of lying. I recall when I suggested he (O'mara) might have been lying about knowing about GZ finances, I was roundly scoffed at.

At any rate, I assume he meant this video:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7d_1333382598

You can deny it's TM. In fact, you probably will. When they yell "trayvon" I am sure you will believe it's a totally different trayvon. Even though it was originally on his youtube channel.

Regardless, remove the video from the list. My argument still stands.

It's convenient to see you make excuses for O'Mara and condemn Martin in the same post. Nicely captures the double standard.

 

[Unabogie]

He says mistake, you say history of lying. I recall when I suggested he (O'mara) might have been lying about knowing about GZ finances, I was roundly scoffed at.

At any rate, I assume he meant this video:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7d_1333382598

You can deny it's TM. In fact, you probably will. When they yell "trayvon" I am sure you will believe it's a totally different trayvon. Even though it was originally on his youtube channel.

Regardless, remove the video from the list. My argument still stands.

Of course you have to remove a video with nothing behind it but a white supremacist site like wagist. So you're left with skipping classes and writing on a locker. Truly outrageous behavior.

 

[Belz...]

I've laid out my case pretty clearly, and cited the relevant law. If you disagree, please, make an argument instead of just an outright dismissal.

It's not about the law, but about the evidence. We cannot establish who attacked who first. How do you not return a not guilty verdict in those cases ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Of course you have to remove a video with nothing behind it but a white supremacist site like wagist.

Why of course ? It came from TMs youtube channel.

I'm curious, do you deny it's TM in that video ?

So you're left with skipping classes and writing on a locker. Truly outrageous behavior.

Yes, just truancy and vandalism ... and all the other items on my list you hand-waved away.

Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's convenient to see you make excuses for O'Mara and condemn Martin in the same post. Nicely captures the double standard.

It's his own excuse, not mine.
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.ph...ding-misstated-nature-of-trayvon-martin-video

He stated that the video showed "two buddies of his beating up a homeless guy," when what happened was Trayvon Martin, along with a buddy, was videotaping two homeless guys fighting each other over a bike. Though it was unintentional, it is a particular concern to us because we are and have been committed to disputing misinformation in every aspect of this case, not causing it. For that, Mr. O’Mara apologizes.

But yes, it was stupid of him to make that mistake.

A lie is intentional. Do you believe O'mara intentionally lied about something that would be so obviously seen as a lie ? I think he's smarter than that.

As for condemning TM, I'm just showing you the evidence of his fondness of fights.

Do you believe it's TM in the video, or no ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well, if all you're going to do is ignore my challenges to the relevance and veracity of your evidence, then of course you won't find my argument compelling. You can't be compelled by something you refuse to acknowledge.

But for the record, this is not a case of "agree to disagree". This is a case of one person not arguing in good faith or with a uniform standard of evidence.

So believe what you want, post your beliefs, and I'll keep exposing them for the biased hypocrisy that they are.

That's fine. Neither being biased nor hypocritcal make it wrong.

 

[Unabogie]

Why of course ? It came from TMs youtube channel.

I'm curious, do you deny it's TM in that video ?



Yes, just truancy and vandalism ... and all the other items on my list you hand-waved away.

Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

Striking all the things you have no proof of. Amazing that your standard of evidence for Martin is pure accusation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Striking all the things you have no proof of. Amazing that your standard of evidence for Martin is pure accusation.

I have no proof of circumstantial evidence ?
I know, the womens jewelry just fell into his backpack.

And he was 17. He can't legally own or purchase a handgun. So there's that.

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

ETA: I'm curious, do you deny it's TM in that video ?

 

[Unabogie]

I have no proof of circumstantial evidence ?
I know, the womens jewelry just fell into his backpack.

And he was 17. He can't legally own or purchase a handgun. So there's that.

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

Violence? What violence?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Violence? What violence?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school
Trayvon Martin, the teenager whose shooting death has sparked a national uproar, was suspended from school last month for having a baggie that contained marijuana residue in his book bag, a family spokesman said Monday.

So:
Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

 

[Unabogie]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school
Trayvon Martin, the teenager whose shooting death has sparked a national uproar, was suspended from school last month for having a baggie that contained marijuana residue in his book bag, a family spokesman said Monday.

So:
Skipping school to the point of suspension.
Suspension from school for drugs and vandalism
Circumstantial evidence of stealing jewelry.
Videos of being involved in fights.
Texts regarding fights, including references to opponent not bleeding enough.
Being kicked out of his mothers home for unknown reasons.
Described himself as a "gangsta"
Discussed illegally purchasing/owning a handgun
Illegal drug use

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

So no actual violence then.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So no actual violence then.

I'm curious, do you deny it's TM in that video ?

Also, the texts were regarding his fights. So yeah, he liked fighting. Violence.

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

What I called him a juvenile delinquent, or vandal or hoodlum, would you disagree? Those are synonyms for thug.

It would seem more like you were actually attempting to have an honest conversation if you answer my questions, since I am answering yours.

 

[Belz...]

Violence? What violence?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school
Trayvon Martin, the teenager whose shooting death has sparked a national uproar, was suspended from school last month for having a baggie that contained marijuana residue in his book bag, a family spokesman said Monday.

Being in possession of pot is violent. Got it.

 

[Unabogie]

I'm curious, do you deny it's TM in that video ?

Also, the texts were regarding his fights. So yeah, he liked fighting. Violence.

Criminal activity and a penchant for violence. How does that not meet the definition of thug ?

What I called him a juvenile delinquent, or vandal or hoodlum, would you disagree? Those are synonyms for thug.

It would seem more like you were actually attempting to have an honest conversation if you answer my questions, since I am answering yours.

No, there's nothing to prove that was him, and I've never met him, so I have no idea who that is. You got that video from a known white supremacist site, so it's on you to prove who that is. As for texting about fighting, you sure do display a different standard when it comes to Trayvon Martin. On the one hand, a text message from a sixteen year old kid about fights is enough to call him "violent", while a grown man who assaults a DEA agent and several women, at least some of those times armed with a shotgun, gets a big "meh".

As for skipping classes or writing "WTF" on his locker, that's one of the sillier arguments I've ever seen. Seriously, that gets you to the "thug" threshold with Martin?

Let's see, you mention the jewelry. But by your standard, anyone who hasn't been convicted of a crime is innocent of that crime. Was Martin ever convicted of a crime? Then he's innocent, even on the forum. Do you now recant your earlier stance that only court verdicts make someone guilty of something? I can't keep it all straight.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, there's nothing to prove that was him, and I've never met him, so I have no idea who that is.

I don't have any proof, nor have I personally met many people in videos I see, yet I have no problem determining who they are...

So that's your standards ? Or just your standards in this instance ?

You got that video from a known white supremacist site, so it's on you to prove who that is.

No, I got the video from liveleak. But it's irrelevant where it came from. Throw out "known white supremacist site" all you want - it still either is TM or it isn't.

It originally came from TMs youtube channel.
They yell "trayvon" in it.
It looks like him.
Mark O'Mara claims he has a video of TM refereeing a fight.

But yeah, that's totally not him - because I have to prove it to your satisfaction before I can believe it's him.

As for texting about fighting, you sure do display a different standard when it comes to Trayvon Martin. On the one hand, a text message from a sixteen year old kid about fights is enough to call him "violent", while a grown man who assaults a DEA agent and several women, at least some of those times armed with a shotgun, gets a big "meh".

But in your case, pushing a policeman is "violent" yet .
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1951821.html

Some of the earliest text messages date back to early November 2011, in which Trayvon, a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade, indicates he was suspended from school for being in a fistfight.

One of Trayvon’s cellphone pictures shows two teens about to square off against one another as a third stands in the middle like a referee. Trayvon said he fought a rival who “snitched on me.”

Trayvon: “I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd.”

Friend: “Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting.”

Trayvon: “Nay im not done with fool.. he gone hav 2 see me again.”

Friend: “Nooo Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?”

"He aint breed nuff 4 me"

That sounds like a penchant for violence to me.


What I called him a juvenile delinquent, or vandal or hoodlum, would you disagree? Those are synonyms for thug.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't have any proof, nor have I personally met many people in videos I see, yet I have no problem determining who they are...

So that's your standards ? Or just your standards in this instance ?

My standard is that it's your claim, prove it.

No, I got the video from liveleak. But it's irrelevant where it came from. Throw out "known white supremacist site" all you want - it still either is TM or it isn't.

Well, it matters where people get their information from. Strangely enough, getting all your news from hate sites tends to skew the perspective.

It originally came from TMs youtube channel.
They yell "trayvon" in it.
It looks like him.
Mark O'Mara claims he has a video of TM refereeing a fight.

We've already demonstrated that O'Mara is perfectly happy to lie and make up smears when it helps his client. I'm not sure why you persist in using him as a source. His credibility is shot.

But yeah, that's totally not him - because I have to prove it to your satisfaction before I can believe it's him.

We yeah, you can believe anything you want. But if you want other people to believe it too, you have to present proof.

But in your case, pushing a policeman is "violent" yet .
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1951821.html

Some of the earliest text messages date back to early November 2011, in which Trayvon, a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade, indicates he was suspended from school for being in a fistfight.

One of Trayvon’s cellphone pictures shows two teens about to square off against one another as a third stands in the middle like a referee. Trayvon said he fought a rival who “snitched on me.”

Trayvon: “I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd.”

Friend: “Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting.”

Trayvon: “Nay im not done with fool.. he gone hav 2 see me again.”

Friend: “Nooo Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?”

"He aint breed nuff 4 me"

That sounds like a penchant for violence to me.

No, that sounds like a person texting bravado. Do you have any proof such a fight took place, or whether or not is was just a bunch of shoving, like for instance, how Zimmerman shoved that DEA agent? No, you have nothing but this alleged text, from which you've extrapolated the worst possible interpretation. When Zimmerman committed his many assaults, you have a totally different standard. One in which an accusation with a named complainant is not enough.

What I called him a juvenile delinquent, or vandal or hoodlum, would you disagree? Those are synonyms for thug.

Well yes, since you still haven't shown a single case in which Martin was engaged in violence. I can give you several for his murderer. They include assault, rape, and threatening with a loaded gun.

Would you disagree that if there were allegations that Trayvon Martin assaulted people, committed rape, and threatened a woman with a loaded shotgun, that you'd consider that rock solid evidence of a violent "thug"? Of course you would, since your standards include skipping classes and writing "WTF" on his locker, or getting caught with an empty weed baggie. Had Martin threatened a woman with a gun there'd be no doubt in your mind he was a depraved maniac.