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I challenge you: your best argument for materialism

It's the process.
OK, so it is not the output - it is the process. In that case it would not be true to say that the brain was computing a sensation of nausea, rather you are saying that the nausea is the process of computing something. Yes?
 
Also, PixyMisa, with respect to computation you earlier asked "what else is there?". There are lots of things besides computations, even in discrete terms. Most automata are not computers. Wolfram's Rule 110 might be universal, but you cannot, even in principle, implement a Turing Machine on rule 111. And if reality is continuous then most physical processes will not be computations, nor even computable.
 
that's pure begging the question

You want someone to prove that the world is real??:eye-poppi

ETA: If you refuse to accept the evidence of your senses then I don't see how we can have any discussion.
 
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Why to such a deep degree. If I have a computation that runs on a PA-RISC architecture then I can run an equivalent computation of an Intel chip without simulating the subatomic particles of the PA-RISC processor. So if the brain is running an algorithm then I ought to be able to run an equivalent algorithm on a register machine without doing it down to sub-atomic particle level, or even to neural level.

You could certainly do it with less, but I don't know if it is known exactly what effect quantum-level interactions have on the brain, so it's conceptually simpler to go for a complete physical simulation than a simulation of a more abstract but much simpler neural-net that processes information in the same way.

(Conceptually simpler, but practically much more difficult. But for a thought experiment, physical difficulty is irrelevant.)

I think that describing the brain as a computer is a little misleading, because when people use the term "computer" they usually mean a stored-program computer or Turing machine, but the brain is nothing like these things.

It's more like an analogue computer, in that the processing of information is hardwired, not the result of following a set of programmed instructions, so you can't just use an interpreter or recompile the code to run the program on a different machine, because there is no program to interpret or recompile.

You have to either simulate or emulate the machine instead. In the same way, you have to simulate or emulate the brain to reproduce it on a digital computer.

But somehow it is going to participate with a series of similar events which will happen in the future to be a sensation of nausea. What it in nature that will link this event in the past to events in the future to produce this sensation?

The number in the register will influence the future steps of the instructions.

It's my understanding that consciousness is a process performed by the brain. It is the process that experiences sensations. The sensations are variations in how the process proceeds.

There's no sensation in the units of information being processed or the physical structure performing the processing, but the process itself is the sensation.

Why should this process do any more than we see it doing, placing a collection of encoded numbers on storage?

From an external viewpoint, it doesn't.

But the process itself doesn't "see" the encoded numbers (or electric charges, or chemical states) that it is based on. It only "sees" what it is processing, such as input from sensory apparatus (such as eyes, ears, skin) and internal abstractions.

This sensation of nausea which will be produced, somehow, maybe over millions of years by this processing being completed by others, maybe being moved to different computers - what is it exactly? Is it the output of the computation? Or something to do with the details of the computation itself?

It's a variation in the process being performed by the computation.

I still don't really understand the claim.

It is a rather confusing and tenuous concept when you look into it.

I'll admit I only barely understand it myself, and I don't think I could even come close to explaining it in a way that can be easily understood by someone who hasn't already managed to come up with an idea of how it works themselves.

Maybe it might help if you start wondering how consciousness can arise in the brain, if all the brain is doing is moving chemicals and electrons around.
 
Also, PixyMisa, with respect to computation you earlier asked "what else is there?". There are lots of things besides computations, even in discrete terms. Most automata are not computers. Wolfram's Rule 110 might be universal, but you cannot, even in principle, implement a Turing Machine on rule 111. And if reality is continuous then most physical processes will not be computations, nor even computable.

I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion in that last sentence.

Rule 111 might not be capable of universal computation, but anything capable of universal computation can perform rule 111. You can perform rule 111 with rule 110.

Just because something cannot perform computation doesn't mean that it cannot be computed.
 
I certainly have no reason to believe that the machine has felt nauseous as I feel nauseous.

Why do you believe that you feel nauseous? In other words, how is it that you are able to ground nausea on your feelings at all?

If you are taking your experiences to be atomistic and using them as irreducible and apodictic ways to understand the world, then how can you logically demand that another's experiences (man or machine) are reducible? You would never be able to "watch" the computer be nauseous, you could only ask it, "Do you feel a little out of sorts? A bit vomity perhaps?"

The computer may very well feel exactly as you do and you'd never be able to tell - even if it were strictly material.
 
OK, so it is not the output - it is the process. In that case it would not be true to say that the brain was computing a sensation of nausea, rather you are saying that the nausea is the process of computing something. Yes?
Yes. Same goes for all mental "states" - they're not really states, they're ongoing processes.
 
I think that describing the brain as a computer is a little misleading, because when people use the term "computer" they usually mean a stored-program computer or Turing machine, but the brain is nothing like these things.

It's more like an analogue computer, in that the processing of information is hardwired, not the result of following a set of programmed instructions, so you can't just use an interpreter or recompile the code to run the program on a different machine, because there is no program to interpret or recompile.
Not exactly; it's really a pulse-coded global-biased switched network. Agreed, that's not what most people mean when they say "computer", but that's because most people don't really understand what a computer is.
 
I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion in that last sentence.

Rule 111 might not be capable of universal computation, but anything capable of universal computation can perform rule 111. You can perform rule 111 with rule 110.

Just because something cannot perform computation doesn't mean that it cannot be computed.
Do you mean when I say that if reality is continuous then it cannot be computed?

I didn't think that would even be controversial. I am not even sure what your point is. I didn't say that a continuous system cannot do computations - it can.

But something that can only compute cannot reference all of a smooth interval, for example the number of values in the real interval [0,1] is countably infinite, but the number of values in that interval is uncountably unfinite. So a computer can only reference a vanishingly tiny proportion of the values on a smooth interval.
 
Why do you believe that you feel nauseous? In other words, how is it that you are able to ground nausea on your feelings at all?

If you are taking your experiences to be atomistic and using them as irreducible and apodictic ways to understand the world, then how can you logically demand that another's experiences (man or machine) are reducible? You would never be able to "watch" the computer be nauseous, you could only ask it, "Do you feel a little out of sorts? A bit vomity perhaps?"

The computer may very well feel exactly as you do and you'd never be able to tell - even if it were strictly material.
The computer may, somehow feel nausea.

But if the claim is that this world is what you would expect a material world to be like and also claim that sensations are computations - then you must be able to demonstrate that some computation must produce the feeling of nausea.
 
Not exactly; it's really a pulse-coded global-biased switched network. Agreed, that's not what most people mean when they say "computer", but that's because most people don't really understand what a computer is.
A pulse coded, global biased, switched network (for whatever definition you are using for "global biased" in this case) may or may not be a computer depending on how it is set up.

Pretty much irrelevant because if it is a computer then there will be an equivalent algorithm which runs on a register machine.
 
A pulse coded, global biased, switched network (for whatever definition you are using for "global biased" in this case) may or may not be a computer depending on how it is set up.
Technically, it's a computer, but it may not be Turing-equivalent. Though the brain is, of course.

Pretty much irrelevant because if it is a computer then there will be an equivalent algorithm which runs on a register machine.
Correct.
 
The sensation of nausea is the process of computation. It's not a number that the computation spits out; it's the process itself.
Yes, which is what I said. What you are saying is that the feeling of nausea is not what is being computed, the process of computing something.
 
Do you mean when I say that if reality is continuous then it cannot be computed?

I didn't think that would even be controversial. I am not even sure what your point is. I didn't say that a continuous system cannot do computations - it can.

But something that can only compute cannot reference all of a smooth interval, for example the number of values in the real interval [0,1] is countably infinite, but the number of values in that interval is uncountably unfinite. So a computer can only reference a vanishingly tiny proportion of the values on a smooth interval.
Right. But our universe is quantised, so that doesn't matter for us.
 
Right. But our universe is quantised, so that doesn't matter for us.
The fact of quantum physics does not make this a digital universe.

Quantum physics uses real numbers for its models of the Universe, which suggests a continuous Universe. It may be that it is discrete at a lower level, but we don't know that.
 
The fact of quantum physics does not make this a digital universe.
Yes it does.

Quantum physics uses real numbers for its models of the Universe, which suggests a continuous Universe. It may be that it is discrete at a lower level, but we don't know that.
It is effectively discrete. We don't know what that means, and it's probably impossible to tell

The difference is whether quantities below the quantum of a given dimension have no effect, or actually don't exist. It's like naturalism vs. materialism: They look the same by definition, so there's little point arguing about which one is true.
 
The fact of quantum physics does not make this a digital universe.

Quantum physics uses real numbers for its models of the Universe, which suggests a continuous Universe. It may be that it is discrete at a lower level, but we don't know that.

Newtonian physics uses real numbers too. And any quantum physical interaction or process can be simulated by a computer, a Turing machine.
 

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