Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

What, exactly, was Martin's felony, misdemeanor or "breach of peace"?

The page references Atwater vs Lago Vista where in the Supreme Court majority opinion, the only reference to citizens was in the reference to common law with the passage:

(ii) A second, and equally serious, problem for Atwater’s historical argument is posed by various statutes enacted by Parliament well before this Republic’s founding that authorized peace officers (and even private persons) to make warrantless arrests for all sorts of relatively minor offenses unaccompanied by violence, including, among others, nightwalking, unlawful game-playing, profane cursing, and negligent carriage-driving. Pp. 11—14.​

Trayvon's crime was apparently nightwalking. Though George may have interpreted this term to mean "walking while black".

 

[quadraginta]

The page references Atwater vs Lago Vista where in the Supreme Court majority opinion, the only reference to citizens was in the reference to common law with the passage:

(ii) A second, and equally serious, problem for Atwater’s historical argument is posed by various statutes enacted by Parliament well before this Republic’s founding that authorized peace officers (and even private persons) to make warrantless arrests for all sorts of relatively minor offenses unaccompanied by violence, including, among others, nightwalking, unlawful game-playing, profane cursing, and negligent carriage-driving. Pp. 11—14.​

Trayvon's crime was apparently nightwalking. Though George may have interpreted this term to mean "walking while black".

So it would seem, since it doesn't seem likely that George would have behaved the same way if it had been a white person he saw. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any law against walking home from the store in the early evening in Florida.

Of course if colonial statutes which antedate the Constitution and are no longer considered crimes are sufficient cause then maybe George could have been arrested by Trayvon for negligent carriage-driving.

If he had had a gun of his own.

Trayvon's biggest mistake was not having his own gun. That way he wouldn't have needed to try and borrow George's.

If that's what happened.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So it would seem, since it doesn't seem likely that George would have behaved the same way if it had been a white person he saw. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any law against walking home from the store in the early evening in Florida.

Of course if colonial statutes which antedate the Constitution and are no longer considered crimes are sufficient cause then maybe George could have been arrested by Trayvon for negligent carriage-driving.

If he had had a gun of his own.

Trayvon's biggest mistake was not having his own gun. That way he wouldn't have needed to try and borrow George's.

If that's what happened.

He was working on changing that ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/u...ase-text-messages-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=0

In a series of text messages from November 2011 to February 2012, Mr. Martin wrote that he had been suspended from school for cutting classes. In the messages, he said his mother had “kicked” him out of the house and told him to move in with his father. In one message, Mr. Martin described himself as “gangsta.” Other text messages refer to his involvement in fights and reveal an interest in guns, including an exchange about possibly buying one, referring to it as a .380.

 

[Belz...]

You are so biased and blinkered due to race, it is incredible.

How does this counter Mumbles' points ?

 

[Belz...]

ha ha, really?

Arguing against your certainty now means that I am certain?

You did claim that he assaulted Zimmerman, did you not ?

 

[johnny karate]

He was working on changing that ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/u...ase-text-messages-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=0

In a series of text messages from November 2011 to February 2012, Mr. Martin wrote that he had been suspended from school for cutting classes.

My god. I have never heard of such shockingly thuggish behavior. A teenager cutting classes? It is a horror beyond comprehension.

In the messages, he said his mother had “kicked” him out of the house and told him to move in with his father.

Outrageous! I can’t even begin to wrap my head around such unbridled thuggery.

In one message, Mr. Martin described himself as “gangsta.” Other text messages refer to his involvement in fights and reveal an interest in guns, including an exchange about possibly buying one, referring to it as a .380.

Here’s you arguing that a woman who admitted to committing perjury did not actually commit perjury:

It was too good a deal to pass up, and part of the deal was to admit she was lying then. So she's lying now about lying then.

And of course, in that case, we have an actual crime with evidence and everything.

So if we can’t be sure that actually happened, why do we then take the texts of a teenage boy - referencing no actual crime or event - literally and at face-value?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

My god. I have never heard of such shockingly thuggish behavior. A teenager cutting classes? It is a horror beyond comprehension.
Outrageous! I can’t even begin to wrap my head around such unbridled thuggery.

No, that's the behavior of a perfect angel. So well behaved his mother can't stand to have him live there.

Here’s you arguing that a woman who admitted to committing perjury did not actually commit perjury:

You forgot this part:

That was easy.

It's as if you think context doesn't matter.

And of course, in that case, we have an actual crime with evidence and everything.

So if we can’t be sure that actually happened, why do we then take the texts of a teenage boy - referencing no actual crime or event - literally and at face-value?

Take it however you want. What does his being a teenage boy have to do with it .... context ?

 

[McHell]

What does his being a teenage boy have to do with it .... context ?

Just offering some food for thought...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/12/people-more-likely-to-lie-when-texting-study.html

A new paper to be published next year in the Journal of Business Ethics finds that people are more likely to lie via text compared to face-to-face communications, video conferencing or audio chat.

http://blogs.plos.org/neuroanthropology/2014/05/16/facts-fictions-teenage-brain-gasoline-brakes/

"From this expansion of studies, it is well established that brain maturation occurs through adolescence, with some of the most significant changes are in the prefrontal areas, otherwise known as the prefrontal cortex (PFC). In the PFC, during adolescence there is a decline in grey matter (made up of the cell bodies of neurons, the nerve fibers that project from them and support cells) and an increase in white matter. The basic notion is that both these things are happening at the same time during adolescence.

The density of prefrontal gray matter follows a bell shaped curve with a peak around age 11 for girls and later for boys. There is massive brain reorganization between 12-25 yrs old, and shows up as dramatic changes in adolescent brain development. Particularly in the fiber tracts that link different brain regions and structures (Steinberg 2011). The increase in structural connectivity is not surprisingly paralleled by an increase in functional connectivity, which has significant implications in adolescent behavior especially with regard to cognitive control."

"The adolescent phase involves a lot of experimentation, which for many adolescents means engaging in the risky activities we have described, including involvement in crime. Self-report studies have found that 80–90 percent of teenage boys admit to committing crimes for which they could be incarcerated (Moffitt 1993). But the typical teenage delinquent does not grow up to be an adult criminal. The statistics consistently show that seventeen-year-olds commit more crimes than any other age group—thereafter, the crime rate declines steeply (Scott & Steinberg 2008)."

 

[Belz...]

No, that's the behavior of a perfect angel. So well behaved his mother can't stand to have him live there.

What the hell does this have to do with the case ?

 

[Mumbles]

My god. I have never heard of such shockingly thuggish behavior. A teenager cutting classes? It is a horror beyond comprehension.

Now, here's the real question. Why does cutting classes get you suspended? We know that suspending a student makes them less likely to get good grades, to graduate, to succeed. Why was Martin suspended for this?

 

[SleepingWeasle]

Now, here's the real question. Why does cutting classes get you suspended? We know that suspending a student makes them less likely to get good grades, to graduate, to succeed. Why was Martin suspended for this?

How do we know that "suspending a student makes them less likely to get good grades, to graduate, to succeed"? I certainly don't know that. I'm aware that troubled students often get suspended, and that troubled students also often get poor grades, but I don't know that the act of suspending them causes this. How do you know this?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What the hell does this have to do with the case ?

Haven't you been following ? Absolutely everything about anyone even marginally involved with the case is relevant.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Now, here's the real question. Why does cutting classes get you suspended? We know that suspending a student makes them less likely to get good grades, to graduate, to succeed. Why was Martin suspended for this?

If I had to guess, it probably has to do with racism.

 

[Mumbles]

If I had to guess, it probably has to do with racism.

As a matter of fact , yes, this is a known factor.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

Are you suggesting Zimmerman shot Martin because he cut classes? If not, this thread has already had enough issues with moderation, please take it to an appropriate thread so this issue can still be discussed here.

 

[johnny karate]

No, that's the behavior of a perfect angel. So well behaved his mother can't stand to have him live there.

How does Martin not being a perfect angel and having his mother not want him in the house make him a thug?

It's as if you think context doesn't matter.

Yes, context is important. Let's take a look at some, shall we?

Here's you, in that same thread, arguing that same position again:

Maybe you should check the other thread, where you made the exact same post.

But to save you some time, here was my answer in that thread:

It was too good a deal to pass up, and part of the deal was to admit she was lying then. So she's lying now about lying then.

That was easy.

And again:

That only works in a system where actually being innocent is a guarantee of being found not guilty.

Since we know that is not the case here, it seems very reasonable to take the deal if there was even the slightest chance of being found guilty, whether she (believed she) was actually was guilty or not.

And again:

Thanks, but it wasn't me, it was Shellie. I am just the messenger.

Those are the entire posts quoted in full with nary a smilie to be found.

Is this the part that you tell you didn't really mean those arguments either?

Take it however you want. What does his being a teenage boy have to do with it .... context ?

Well, the context here is a combination of a seemingly breath-taking naiveté regarding the capacity for teenage boys to exaggerate and outright fabricate their exploits to their peers, coupled with a profound misunderstanding for modern slang.

I mean, did you really think Martin referred to himself as a "gangsta" in any kind of literal sense? If he had called himself a "pimp" would you assume he was trafficking in prostitutes?

Furthermore, there is the glaring discrepancy in arguing that a woman who admits she committed perjury about an actual recorded case of perjury might not be telling the truth about having committed perjury, and taking everything a teenage boy texts to his friends as the literal truth absent any other corroborating evidence.

So I ask you again, if we must allow that Shellie Zimmerman wasn't being truthful when she admitted to committing perjury, why must we then accept everything Martin texted to his friends as gospel truth?

 

[johnny karate]

Haven't you been following ? Absolutely everything about anyone even marginally involved with the case is relevant.

You brought it up as evidence that Martin was thug.

We're still trying to suss out exactly how you made that leap.

 

[johnny karate]

Are you suggesting Zimmerman shot Martin because he cut classes? If not, this thread has already had enough issues with moderation, please take it to an appropriate thread so this issue can still be discussed here.

Go back and read through the last page or so of the thread.

It was asserted that Martin was a thug.

When asked for evidence of this, that fact that he was suspended from school (for cutting classes) was offered as a piece of evidence.

And that's how we got to this point.

So maybe you could assist in connecting the dots between cutting classes and being a thug, because the person who made the original assertion seems unwilling or unable.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You brought it up as evidence that Martin was thug.

We're still trying to suss out exactly how you made that leap.

No I didn't. That paragraph was the part in the New York Times that mentioned he was trying to get the gun the quadraginta lamented him not having.

 

[Belz...]

Haven't you been following ? Absolutely everything about anyone even marginally involved with the case is relevant.

Thank you for the non-answer.