Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[MDDVS]

I've been wondering lately whether all this international attention and condemnation somewhat blindsided the ISC / Perugian police et al.

A system doesn't get this messed up, byzantine and corrupt overnight - they've been getting away with this combination of shoddy police work, egotistical prosecutors and indulgent, self-serving circular reasoning for so long that they probably thought they were doing a good job, and likely most of them still do. The number of Italian cases before the ECHR would be indicative of this.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of them find the international condemnation totally bizarre and uncalled-for. There's that much confirmation bias insulating them from reality.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening.

 

[moije2]

In the PMF.org translation of the Nencini report (p.166), the judge writes:

In the first place Amanda Marie Knox has never clarified why, on the morning of 2 November 2007, she would have had to return home to Via della Pergola to have a shower and change her clothes.​

According to the transcript of the interview between Mignini and Knox on 17th December, 2007 as found on the True Justice for Meredith Kercher website the following exchange occurs, regarding the 1st of November:

PM Mignini: Now then at this point the recording resumes at 11:50 am and I repeat the question, what did you do on the afternoon of the 1st of November and during that night between the 1st and the 2nd? Oh and the morning of the 2nd obviously.
Knox: When I had woken up in the morning I was at Raffaele’s house, the 1st of November, and I went to my house to have a shower to change myself, I had already spoken to Raffaele and he had said to me that he would have come over to my place, when he would have woken and everything… So what I did was that I studied and then I put away my linens [whites]…
Then referring to the following day (Nov 2nd) the following exchange takes place
PM Mignini: Why did you go back home?
Interpreter: To take a shower and change her clothes
PM Mignini: Why didn’t you take a shower at Sollecito’s?
Knox: Did you see his shower? … It leaks [drops?] everywhere… It’s a dreadful shower… I hate to use it… and moreover all what I need to have a shower like shampoo is at my home…
Interpreter: Because it’s an ugly place, small, there is little space
PM Mignini: But you took the shower other times, but also during the afternoon you had one…
Knox: I prefer to take a shower at my home
Interpreter: She prefers to take a shower at her home, she also has clothes at home…
Knox: And also all my clothes are at my home…
PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?
Interpreter: To change her clothes.​

It seems to me that Amanda has clarified the reasons why she went back to her house on the morning of Nov 2nd.
1) She was accustomed to living in both places and going back to her house to have a
shower was not a one-off (she did it the day before).
2) Raffaele’s shower was dreadful
3) Her shampoo was at home
4) She wanted to change her clothes (this explanation is embedded in the very
accusation Nencini makes!)
5) She prefers to take a shower at home

I am not impressed with Nencini here.

Two things: One is left with the definite impression that they just make things up to fit the picture of guilt that they have in their heads. Whether it is acurate or not. And of course it is 7 years later for them too, and surely we can't expect them to be aware of the details of the case. Like someone recently said, it is not about logic, it is about finding them guilty.

Another example of fluff - the highlited part above. Unnecessary and unsupported language that reeks of judgmental thinking. A person is required to have a reason to want to shower at home? Better explain yourself!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

deflection reflection

My post #3932 above refers.

Please point out where I state “blacks” are more likely to be wrongfully convicted? Your post inserts words I did not use.

CoulsdonUK,

You also wrote, "In the case of the Central Park Five and the Mcollum brothers, would you say their ethnic origin (African American) was the motivating factor behind the similarities of the case of something else?"

You seem to want to discuss wrongful convictions in America more than the present case. And yet you ignore the quotes and links from those cases that raise similar problems to those on display in the present case. That makes me wonder whether your arguments are serious or unserious.

 

[Desert Fox]

My post #3932 above refers.

Please point out where I state “blacks” are more likely to be wrongfully convicted? Your post inserts words I did not use.

If I was mistaken, I apologize

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

You also wrote, "In the case of the Central Park Five and the Mcollum brothers, would you say their ethnic origin (African American) was the motivating factor behind the similarities of the case of something else?"

You seem to want to discuss wrongful convictions in America more than the present case. And yet you ignore the quotes and links from those cases that raise similar problems to those on display in the present case. That makes me wonder whether your arguments are serious or unserious.

Chris_Halkides

My observation remain the same, in the caee Mcollum brothers and the central park five the ethnic origin was the driving factor for their wrongful conviction, I assume you disagree?

The majority of people who post here are American and they continually mention those cases they are familiar with, just as you have mentioned the Duke Lacrosse case a number of times. However, I agree with you American cases are irrelevant in the context of this case.

 

[Desert Fox]

Chris_Halkides

My observation remain the same, in the caee Mcollum brothers and the central park five the ethnic origin was the driving factor for their wrongful conviction, I assume you disagree?

The majority of people who post here are American and they continually mention those cases they are familiar with, just as you have mentioned the Duke Lacrosse case a number of times. However, I agree with you American cases are irrelevant in the context of this case.

I disagree strongly. . . .Discussing other cases goes into the mindset of how these cases work.

 

[toto]

or

5) Brutally shrewd - Intentionally planting logical stink bombs throughout his motivation, so that cassione can confirm if they want, or have plenty of grounds for over-turning if they want. In other words, he left them a fixer-upper, that they can remake into any outcome they like. That would leave Nencini in the amoral twilight zone where so many of his colleagues seem to reside.

I do wish people would stop looking for logic in the charges, convictions and judicial motivation reports. Finding them guilty is a desire, not a consequence of logic, reason, evidence, reality, or truth. They find them guilty, because they want to, and because they can.
Italy will need a revolution to rid themselves of these fascist monsters.

If this is me, sorry! But the Nencini report, being the latest and probably the last report, is worth reading from my point of view, to ensure I am properly looking at the evidence as objectively as I can. (I was really shocked when Nencini delivered his judgement and won't allow myself to be optimistic again until and unless some miracle occurs next March).

 

[Samson]

Chris_Halkides

My observation remain the same, in the caee Mcollum brothers and the central park five the ethnic origin was the driving factor for their wrongful conviction, I assume you disagree?

The majority of people who post here are American and they continually mention those cases they are familiar with, just as you have mentioned the Duke Lacrosse case a number of times. However, I agree with you American cases are irrelevant in the context of this case.

CoulsdonUK, all cases may be relevant to find patterns of behaviour. On the Shrien Dewani thread I posted this.

And Mellen

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...px?caseid=4507

Susan Mellen was declared innocent rather than not guilty after years of incarceration.
She was tried and convicted in a separate trial after the sole killer was already in jail.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were declared innocent rather than not guilty after years of incarceration.
They were tried and convicted in a separate trial after the sole killer was already in jail.
He gained a reduced sentence for helping with their conviction.

Shrien Dewani is being tried in a separate trial after other perpetrators are in jail. One of them has gained a reduced sentence for helping with his proposed conviction.

And consider this


"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."
Winston Churchill

By all means point out that these are all completely independent spins of the roulette wheel, and should be regarded as irrelevant, but let's see what happens to Shrien.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I disagree strongly. . . .Discussing other cases goes into the mindset of how these cases work.

I look forward to your exchange of views with Chris_Halkides given his observations in post # 3984.

 

[NancyS]

I look forward to your exchange of views with Chris_Halkides given his observations in post # 3984.

I think you need to re-read his post as he is not saying that he thinks other cases are irrelevant

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I think you need to re-read his post as he is not saying that he thinks other cases are irrelevant

Possibly, it depends whom you are referring to, help me out who is his, a post number always helps, thanks in advance,

 

[NancyS]

Possibly, it depends whom you are referring to, help me out who is his, a post number always helps, thanks in advance,

I thought you were referring to Chris Halkides post #3983 (although you wrote #3984) - and you really don't need to thank me in advance

 

[Chris_Halkides]

using cases from other countries to illustrate a point

Chris_Halkides

My observation remain the same, in the caee Mcollum brothers and the central park five the ethnic origin was the driving factor for their wrongful conviction, I assume you disagree?

The majority of people who post here are American and they continually mention those cases they are familiar with, just as you have mentioned the Duke Lacrosse case a number of times. However, I agree with you American cases are irrelevant in the context of this case.

CoulsdonUK,

Nothing of what you wrote remotely addresses any of my points. I don't have a strong opinion as to whether or not ethnic origin was the driving factor, although I suspect it played a role. I do have a strong opinion that the Central Park Five case can and should be held up as an object lesson to illustrate why the entire interrogation should be recorded, not just a confession, and I provided one or two links to allow people to explore this idea. Do you agree or disagree that recordings should be made of an entire interrogation, not just the confession? Do you agree or disagree that this applies to Perugia just as much as it applies to New York City?

I disagree with the wording of your last sentence. My point was that no one should be disqualified from voicing an opinion on this case because of the real or perceived shortcomings of his or her own country's CJ system. However, cases from the U.S. and from Australia (both of which I often use) are not irrelevant in that they illustrate the mechanisms of wrongful accusations and wrongful convictions.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Nothing of what you wrote remotely addresses any of my points. I don't have a strong opinion as to whether or not ethnic origin was the driving factor, although I suspect it played a role. I do have a strong opinion that the Central Park Five case can and should be held up as an object lesson to illustrate why the entire interrogation should be recorded, not just a confession, and I provided one or two links to allow people to explore this idea. Do you agree or disagree that recordings should be made of an entire interrogation, not just the confession? Do you agree or disagree that this applies to Perugia just as much as it applies to New York City?

I disagree with the wording of your last sentence. My point was that no one should be disqualified from voicing an opinion on this case because of the real or perceived shortcomings of his or her own country's CJ system. However, cases from the U.S. and from Australia (both of which I often use) are not irrelevant in that they illustrate the mechanisms of wrongful accusations and wrongful convictions.

Chris_Halkides

Thanks for your clarification.

Help me out here, just for context. Are all US states obliged by federal law to record all police interviews?

 

[Desert Fox]

CoulsdonUK,

Nothing of what you wrote remotely addresses any of my points. I don't have a strong opinion as to whether or not ethnic origin was the driving factor, although I suspect it played a role. I do have a strong opinion that the Central Park Five case can and should be held up as an object lesson to illustrate why the entire interrogation should be recorded, not just a confession, and I provided one or two links to allow people to explore this idea. Do you agree or disagree that recordings should be made of an entire interrogation, not just the confession? Do you agree or disagree that this applies to Perugia just as much as it applies to New York City? I disagree with the wording of your last sentence. My point was that no one should be disqualified from voicing an opinion on this case because of the real or perceived shortcomings of his or her own country's CJ system. However, cases from the U.S. and from Australia (both of which I often use) are not irrelevant in that they illustrate the mechanisms of wrongful accusations and wrongful convictions.

What is bad is that Italy has on their law books that all police interrogations have to be recorded yet they find ways around it, kind of using the letter against the spirit of the law. They even used to let the confession still get played in court by tying it to civil case being done at the same time as the criminal trial.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

nothing new under the sun

I look forward to your exchange of views with Chris_Halkides given his observations in post # 3984.

CoulsdonUK,

I agree with Desert Fox. Not only does the study of other cases give us insight into the mechanisms of wrongful convictions, but their existence also illustrates that wrongful convictions are plausible events, with explanations that lie what we know about human behavior.

 

[Desert Fox]

Help me out here, just for context. Are all US states obliged by federal law to record all police interviews?

It is in Italy yet they still don't follow it. . . .

 

[Chris_Halkides]

wrongful convictions and the impetus for reform

Chris_Halkides

Thanks for your clarification.

Help me out here, just for context. Are all US states obliged by federal law to record all police interviews?

CoulsdonUK,

I am not certain, but I do not believe so (it would be a great reform IMO). Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine.

 

[NancyS]

Chris_Halkides

Thanks for your clarification.

Help me out here, just for context. Are all US states obliged by federal law to record all police interviews?

Do you think they shouldn't be?

I would argue that they should - and this is hugely more important if you're interrogating a possible suspect. Do you not agree with this?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I am not certain, but I do not believe so (it would be a great reform IMO). Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine.

Chris_Halkides

Okay just so that I am clear, you are unsure whether every US state is legally obliged to record (interview or interrogations), fair enough.

Nonetheless, you are stating that Italy should be, have I got that right?