Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

At least Raffaele and Amanda haven’t been sitting on Death row for the past 30 years like the Mcollum brothers!

Does that make it any less a tragedy for Amanda and Raffaele? Yes, it could be worse. 4 years in prison and an 8 year legal ordeal is better than 30 years. No one will dispute that.

Does that make this somehow OK? I don't think so.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

At least the Mcollum brothers didn't have to endure torture like the Abu Ghraib prisioners.

At least the Abu Ghraib prisioners didn't have to endure mass extermination in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I cannot imagine the daily mental torture of sitting on Death row for 30 years, can you?

Abu Ghraid, what does an Iraq prison, which at the time of the gulf war was being administered by American soldiers, have to do with this case?

 

[MDDVS]

I cannot imagine the daily mental torture of sitting on Death row for 30 years, can you?

Abu Ghraid, what does an Iraq prison, which at the time of the gulf war was being administered by American soldiers, have to do with this case?

Woosh

 

[NancyS]

I cannot imagine the daily mental torture of sitting on Death row for 30 years, can you?

I cannot imagine the mental torture of being accused of something you didn't do, spending four years in prison, having intimate details of your life plastered all over the tabloids, having Internet sites devoted to calling you an evil witch/bitch/whore/slut etc. etc.

Although I guess in an imaginary game of 'Miscarriage of Justice Top Trumps', you win :highfive:

 

[MDDVS]

I cannot imagine the mental torture of being accused of something you didn't do, spending four years in prison, having intimate details of your life plastered all over the tabloids, having Internet sites devoted to calling you an evil witch/bitch/whore/slut etc. etc.

Although I guess in an imaginary game of 'Miscarriage of Justice Top Trumps', you win :highfive:

No, he doesn't. Just from the top of my head there's the case of Cameron Todd Willingham who was actually executed.

Or maybe the many victims of the Gulag or the mines in North Korea had it worse?

I don't understand what is point of this comparisons.

 

[NancyS]

I don't understand what is point of this comparisons.

I agree, it is totally irrelevant. It is also often argued that AK/RS should just shut up and not defend themselves, out of respect to Meredith Kercher - and have no right to complain about the miscarriage of justice , as at least they are alive. It's another very baffling opinion

 

[MDDVS]

I agree, it is totally irrelevant. It is also often argued that AK/RS should just shut up and not defend themselves, out of respect to Meredith Kercher - and have no right to complain about the miscarriage of justice , as at least they are alive. It's another very baffling opinion

Exactly. I would also add that not shutting up is the action that respects Meredith's memory. I think it taints her memory to have innocent people convicted for her murder. She deserves true justice, real true justice.

 

[tsig]

I cannot imagine the daily mental torture of sitting on Death row for 30 years, can you?

Abu Ghraid, what does an Iraq prison, which at the time of the gulf war was being administered by American soldiers, have to do with this case?

Posters seem to be inclined to talk about the West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four or the Mudville Nine, any thing to avoid discussing the Perugia Three.

 

[MDDVS]

Posters seem to be inclined to talk about the West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four or the Mudville Nine, any thing to avoid discussing the Perugia Three.

Interesting and very ironic post. Yes, you are right, Amanda, Rafaelle and Patrick shouldn't be forgotten. Their degrading treatment at the hands of italian police and judiciary was and is appaling.

 

[kwill]

Originally Posted by Stefanoni testimony
Now, let's go into a bit more detail about this crime-scene inspection. I am referring above all to the first crime-scene inspection, the initial one, because it is the most complex one in reality. The general criteria adopted were first and foremost that the technical procedures that were carried out in the house on via Della Pergola went from the inside of the house towards the outside. This was for two reasons: one main [reason] was that the body was in the furthest room along the corridor that leads towards the outside, for which reason - since the victim's room had priority because it was necessary to remove the body, it was necessary to preserve as much as possible, obviously, everything from degradation, contamination and what have you - it was [46] decided to do the crime-scene inspection of the victim's room as a priority and then in that way we would not, in effect, go back again [to that room], then carrying out the procedures towards the outside/exterior, at the same point, so that we were in fact going towards the exterior.

Yikes. This is how it reads without the fluff:

Let's go into detail about this crime-scene inspection. I am referring to the first crime-scene inspection, because it is the most complex one. The criteria adopted were that the technical procedures that were carried out in the house on via Della Pergola went from the inside of the house towards the outside. This was for two reasons: one was that the body was in the furthest room along the corridor that leads towards the outside - since the victim's room had priority because it was necessary to remove the body, it was necessary to preserve as much as possible everything from degradation, contamination - it was decided to do the crime-scene inspection of the victim's room as a priority and then we would not go back again [to that room], carrying out the procedures towards the outside/exterior.

(Can't abide wriggly writing.)

The problem I see, beyond that she can't utter a straightforward sentence to save her life, is that this is not what happened. They did repeatedly go back into Meredith's bedroom. They tracked blood from the bedroom out into the rest of the flat. They also left behind the bloody jacket that Rudy tore off Meredith, just to name one example of their failure to do what she's describing above.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a few notable false confessions

How about the Norfolk Four or the West Memphis Three?

Desert Fox,

Good point. How about Karl Fontenot? How about Christopher Ochoa? How about Frank Esposito? No one denies that we have problems in the criminal justice system that are related to race in the United States, but not every problem can be reduced to race, or even to economic class.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the PI commenters' dilemma

Posters seem to be inclined to talk about the West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four or the Mudville Nine, any thing to avoid discussing the Perugia Three.

tsig,

It seems to me that PI commenters are faced with a dilemma. PG commenters trot out the word "conspiracy" every so often. Then when the PI commenters point out other cases where similar breaches of judicial principles or practice have occurred, they get accused of not wanted to discuss the case, or the commenter makes deflections involving race.

I have asked a number of PG commenters to propose a self-consistent narrative of the crime, one that does not contradict known facts. This is an entirely reasonable thing to request after almost seven years. Can you? If you cannot or will not, what aspect of the case would you like to discuss?

 

[Diocletus]

Yikes. This is how it reads without the fluff:

Let's go into detail about this crime-scene inspection. I am referring to the first crime-scene inspection, because it is the most complex one. The criteria adopted were that the technical procedures that were carried out in the house on via Della Pergola went from the inside of the house towards the outside. This was for two reasons: one was that the body was in the furthest room along the corridor that leads towards the outside - since the victim's room had priority because it was necessary to remove the body, it was necessary to preserve as much as possible everything from degradation, contamination - it was decided to do the crime-scene inspection of the victim's room as a priority and then we would not go back again [to that room], carrying out the procedures towards the outside/exterior.

(Can't abide wriggly writing.)

The problem I see, beyond that she can't utter a straightforward sentence to save her life, is that this is not what happened. They did repeatedly go back into Meredith's bedroom. They tracked blood from the bedroom out into the rest of the flat. They also left behind the bloody jacket that Rudy tore off Meredith, just to name one example of their failure to do what she's describing above.

Not to split hairs, but didn't they actually start downstairs and outside?

 

[toto]

Amanda's shower at her house

In the PMF.org translation of the Nencini report (p.166), the judge writes:

In the first place Amanda Marie Knox has never clarified why, on the morning of 2 November 2007, she would have had to return home to Via della Pergola to have a shower and change her clothes.​

According to the transcript of the interview between Mignini and Knox on 17th December, 2007 as found on the True Justice for Meredith Kercher website the following exchange occurs, regarding the 1st of November:

PM Mignini: Now then at this point the recording resumes at 11:50 am and I repeat the question, what did you do on the afternoon of the 1st of November and during that night between the 1st and the 2nd? Oh and the morning of the 2nd obviously.
Knox: When I had woken up in the morning I was at Raffaele’s house, the 1st of November, and I went to my house to have a shower to change myself, I had already spoken to Raffaele and he had said to me that he would have come over to my place, when he would have woken and everything… So what I did was that I studied and then I put away my linens [whites]…
Then referring to the following day (Nov 2nd) the following exchange takes place
PM Mignini: Why did you go back home?
Interpreter: To take a shower and change her clothes
PM Mignini: Why didn’t you take a shower at Sollecito’s?
Knox: Did you see his shower? … It leaks [drops?] everywhere… It’s a dreadful shower… I hate to use it… and moreover all what I need to have a shower like shampoo is at my home…
Interpreter: Because it’s an ugly place, small, there is little space
PM Mignini: But you took the shower other times, but also during the afternoon you had one…
Knox: I prefer to take a shower at my home
Interpreter: She prefers to take a shower at her home, she also has clothes at home…
Knox: And also all my clothes are at my home…
PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?
Interpreter: To change her clothes.​

It seems to me that Amanda has clarified the reasons why she went back to her house on the morning of Nov 2nd.
1) She was accustomed to living in both places and going back to her house to have a
shower was not a one-off (she did it the day before).
2) Raffaele’s shower was dreadful
3) Her shampoo was at home
4) She wanted to change her clothes (this explanation is embedded in the very
accusation Nencini makes!)
5) She prefers to take a shower at home

I am not impressed with Nencini here.

 

[acbytesla]

Posters seem to be inclined to talk about the West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four or the Mudville Nine, any thing to avoid discussing the Perugia Three.

What the hell are you talking about tsig? We've been talking about this case for 7 years. We've gone over just about every aspect imaginable. But it really isn't the Perugia 3, it is the Perugia 2. Rudy is really guilty. Or have you forgot?

 

[Diocletus]

In the PMF.org translation of the Nencini report (p.166), the judge writes:

In the first place Amanda Marie Knox has never clarified why, on the morning of 2 November 2007, she would have had to return home to Via della Pergola to have a shower and change her clothes.​

According to the transcript of the interview between Mignini and Knox on 17th December, 2007 as found on the True Justice for Meredith Kercher website the following exchange occurs, regarding the 1st of November:

PM Mignini: Now then at this point the recording resumes at 11:50 am and I repeat the question, what did you do on the afternoon of the 1st of November and during that night between the 1st and the 2nd? Oh and the morning of the 2nd obviously.
Knox: When I had woken up in the morning I was at Raffaele’s house, the 1st of November, and I went to my house to have a shower to change myself, I had already spoken to Raffaele and he had said to me that he would have come over to my place, when he would have woken and everything… So what I did was that I studied and then I put away my linens [whites]…
Then referring to the following day (Nov 2nd) the following exchange takes place
PM Mignini: Why did you go back home?
Interpreter: To take a shower and change her clothes
PM Mignini: Why didn’t you take a shower at Sollecito’s?
Knox: Did you see his shower? … It leaks [drops?] everywhere… It’s a dreadful shower… I hate to use it… and moreover all what I need to have a shower like shampoo is at my home…
Interpreter: Because it’s an ugly place, small, there is little space
PM Mignini: But you took the shower other times, but also during the afternoon you had one…
Knox: I prefer to take a shower at my home
Interpreter: She prefers to take a shower at her home, she also has clothes at home…
Knox: And also all my clothes are at my home…
PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?
Interpreter: To change her clothes.​

It seems to me that Amanda has clarified the reasons why she went back to her house on the morning of Nov 2nd.
1) She was accustomed to living in both places and going back to her house to have a
shower was not a one-off (she did it the day before).
2) Raffaele’s shower was dreadful
3) Her shampoo was at home
4) She wanted to change her clothes (this explanation is embedded in the very
accusation Nencini makes!)
5) She prefers to take a shower at home

I am not impressed with Nencini here.

I don't think that you understand the implications to the Italian psyche of showering and clothes-changing. Come to think of it, neither do I.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't think that you understand the implications to the Italian psyche of showering and clothes-changing. Come to think of it, neither do I.

I guess I don't understand why it is so strange that Amanda would want to go back to the cottage to shower and change? Frankly, I've never heard anyone say that this is strange. (Does Nencini?) I can understand Mignini asking the question, just to see if it leads somewhere. But I don't see that it does?

 

[NancyS]

What I really don't understand, is that people claim she was involved in a bloody murder and didn't shower

 

[anglolawyer]

In the PMF.org translation of the Nencini report (p.166), the judge writes:

In the first place Amanda Marie Knox has never clarified why, on the morning of 2 November 2007, she would have had to return home to Via della Pergola to have a shower and change her clothes.​

According to the transcript of the interview between Mignini and Knox on 17th December, 2007 as found on the True Justice for Meredith Kercher website the following exchange occurs, regarding the 1st of November:

PM Mignini: Now then at this point the recording resumes at 11:50 am and I repeat the question, what did you do on the afternoon of the 1st of November and during that night between the 1st and the 2nd? Oh and the morning of the 2nd obviously.
Knox: When I had woken up in the morning I was at Raffaele’s house, the 1st of November, and I went to my house to have a shower to change myself, I had already spoken to Raffaele and he had said to me that he would have come over to my place, when he would have woken and everything… So what I did was that I studied and then I put away my linens [whites]…
Then referring to the following day (Nov 2nd) the following exchange takes place
PM Mignini: Why did you go back home?
Interpreter: To take a shower and change her clothes
PM Mignini: Why didn’t you take a shower at Sollecito’s?
Knox: Did you see his shower? … It leaks [drops?] everywhere… It’s a dreadful shower… I hate to use it… and moreover all what I need to have a shower like shampoo is at my home…
Interpreter: Because it’s an ugly place, small, there is little space
PM Mignini: But you took the shower other times, but also during the afternoon you had one…
Knox: I prefer to take a shower at my home
Interpreter: She prefers to take a shower at her home, she also has clothes at home…
Knox: And also all my clothes are at my home…
PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?
Interpreter: To change her clothes.​

It seems to me that Amanda has clarified the reasons why she went back to her house on the morning of Nov 2nd.
1) She was accustomed to living in both places and going back to her house to have a
shower was not a one-off (she did it the day before).
2) Raffaele’s shower was dreadful
3) Her shampoo was at home
4) She wanted to change her clothes (this explanation is embedded in the very
accusation Nencini makes!)
5) She prefers to take a shower at home

I am not impressed with Nencini here.

There was also that day's cutlery transfer to attend to.

I don't know why they didn't make more of the fact she did not check her money was not missing. I mean, once they realised there had been a burglary, she didn't check to see her $300 was still in the desk drawer. That cuts both ways because if she were faking a burglary you would think she would have a better story about the money.

 

[Desert Fox]

Posters seem to be inclined to talk about the West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four or the Mudville Nine, any thing to avoid discussing the Perugia Three.

CoulsonUK seemed to be trying to argue, using his examples, that blacks are being targeted for wrongful convictions. I wanted to show two concrete examples and I can argue several more.

I see a lot of parallels between the cases against AK/RS and both the Norfolk Four and West Memphis Three. If you look at the Norfolk Four case, it was an ever changing story from the prosecution. Against AK/RS, it is an ever changing story against them.

Not even sure any more what the official reasoning for them suppose to have done it is. . . .