Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

And yet there it is, in the translation by those dozy jackasses at TJMK who think they have discovered the Oracle. My theory is that Mignini was brilliantly covering his corruption by pretending to be an utter moron. You really need the IQ of a pencil to take this crap seriously. He should have been drowned in gales of laughter.

Numbers - What is further troubling is that in the Italian justice system this obsessive and irrational prosecutor could carry out these criminal abuses, which resulted in Amanda and Raffaele each spending nearly four years in prison, and which I am sure are still costing them and their families enormous emotional and financial resources, with impunity. Impunity even after he tried to wreck the lives of about 20 other persons with his abusive and irrational prosecutions in his extension of the Monster of Florence cases.

It's actually an amazing moment, this Mignini. A literal madman, who became a prosecutor, spinning crazy fantasies that he himself actually believes, and sells to a gullible public via a profit hungry amoral tabloid press.

The original investigators who obtained convictions based on a satanic sect theory in the Monster of Florence case, received high profile career promotions. They left before the conviction against pacciani began to fall apart on appeal.

Michele Giutarri took over the Monster squad and it fell to him to save the convictions, and save the Italian judicial authorities the indignity of never having caught the true Monster of Florence.

Mignini and Giutarri, in pursuing their claims that the drowning of Dr Narducci was connected to the MOF crimes, was using the Italian judicial system's blessing of the satanic cult theory, as a vehicle for personal advancement.

And the Italian judiciary wast stuck in a bind. When Mignini pursued Mario Spezi for ridiculing Mignini's investigation, and imprisoned Spezi as the actual MOF, it brought international ridicule to Italy. But does anyone doubt that Mignini actually believed it?

It was those excesses for which Mignini and Giutarri were under indictment when Ms Kercher was killed. And Mignini refused to acceot his shame, instead, he doubled down by continuing to luanch additional cases in the same MOF vein. And the Italian judiciary was stuck. They couldn't let Mignini fail too hard, without jeopardizing the bogus MOF convictions they had signed off on. Yet, they very carefully walked Mignini back from the edge, by methodically deconstructing, and eventually dismissing only this year, his Narducci trail investigations.

That's why I think Amanda and Raf will now be let go. It was never about the evidence. The case was always about putting a leash around Mignini, because they knew full well they had a maniac prosecutor on their hands. In the end, it was easier to promote him out of his job, then to jail him.

BUt this example of Mignini's reasoning skills confirms for me he is a 100% gold plated lunatic, who invents crazy sexual fantasies, and then believes his own fairy tales.

In time, giuliano Mignini will end up in a lunatic asylum or prison. For now, I'm just hoping to see Amanda and Raf set free. BUt I won't forget what these people have done.

 

[js202]

That's why I think Amanda and Raf will now be let go. It was never about the evidence. The case was always about putting a leash around Mignini, because they knew full well they had a maniac prosecutor on their hands. In the end, it was easier to promote him out of his job, then to jail him.

I surely agree with your fundamental assessment of Mignini, but he is far from the only maniac in this Planters can of nuts (with Napoleoni and Giobbi immediately springing to mind, just for starters). So unless one can make the case that there is a discrete anti-Knox cabal within the ISC which more reasonable minds - who? where? - can overpower, I expect the Nencini ruling to be affirmed. I don't see Knox going anywhere, but it seems to me that Sollecito is being set up for wrongful conviction martyrdom, at least for a time. Stomach-turning, but I myself can't reason through a different outcome in the short term.

 

[Numbers]

It's actually an amazing moment, this Mignini. A literal madman, who became a prosecutor, spinning crazy fantasies that he himself actually believes, and sells to a gullible public via a profit hungry amoral tabloid press.

The original investigators who obtained convictions based on a satanic sect theory in the Monster of Florence case, received high profile career promotions. They left before the conviction against pacciani began to fall apart on appeal.

Michele Giutarri took over the Monster squad and it fell to him to save the convictions, and save the Italian judicial authorities the indignity of never having caught the true Monster of Florence.

Mignini and Giutarri, in pursuing their claims that the drowning of Dr Narducci was connected to the MOF crimes, was using the Italian judicial system's blessing of the satanic cult theory, as a vehicle for personal advancement.

And the Italian judiciary wast stuck in a bind. When Mignini pursued Mario Spezi for ridiculing Mignini's investigation, and imprisoned Spezi as the actual MOF, it brought international ridicule to Italy. But does anyone doubt that Mignini actually believed it?

It was those excesses for which Mignini and Giutarri were under indictment when Ms Kercher was killed. And Mignini refused to acceot his shame, instead, he doubled down by continuing to luanch additional cases in the same MOF vein. And the Italian judiciary was stuck. They couldn't let Mignini fail too hard, without jeopardizing the bogus MOF convictions they had signed off on. Yet, they very carefully walked Mignini back from the edge, by methodically deconstructing, and eventually dismissing only this year, his Narducci trail investigations.
That's why I think Amanda and Raf will now be let go. It was never about the evidence. The case was always about putting a leash around Mignini, because they knew full well they had a maniac prosecutor on their hands. In the end, it was easier to promote him out of his job, then to jail him.

BUt this example of Mignini's reasoning skills confirms for me he is a 100% gold plated lunatic, who invents crazy sexual fantasies, and then believes his own fairy tales.

In time, giuliano Mignini will end up in a lunatic asylum or prison. For now, I'm just hoping to see Amanda and Raf set free. BUt I won't forget what these people have done.

These strange prosecutions and misconduct by police and prosecutor, followed by cycles of convictions, acquittals, reconvictions, and finally running out the clock on the statute of limitations, are rather common in Italy.

Among officials, everyone is to blame and no one is held accountable.

And apparently many crimes are "solved" by framing the most convenient suspects.

The scariest thing of all is that crime "solving" by framing the most convenient has happened all too often here in the US.

 

[Machiavelli]

Sure they will. They charged her with a crime and part of her defense was that they coerced her to commit the crime by, among other things, hitting her. She testified to this fact. It's not her fault that the courts wouldn't rule on that specific issue, and indeed, the Italian authorities never conducted a proper investigation as they were obligated to do pursuant to their obligations under the echr. They issue is squarely before the ecthr and she is going to win if they decide the appeal

There was no need for her to commence a separate action for adjudication of her mistreatment, when it was a vital part of her defense.

You're wrong: imaybe you didn't absorb the concept, that the ECHR only rules on petitions concerning points that were risen with legitimate courts and have exausted the legal course. It is precisely Knox's fault if nobody investigated that specific issue, because that kind of offence cannot have a legal action started without a formal complaint from the victim.
Btw, such claim has never been a vital part of her defence. Her defence in the calunnia charge entirely hinges around the theory of false memory syndrome.

 

[Diocletus]

You're wrong: imaybe you didn't absorb the concept, that the ECHR only rules on petitions concerning points that were risen with legitimate courts and have exausted the legal course. It is precisely Knox's fault if nobody investigated that specific issue, because that kind of offence cannot have a legal action started without a formal complaint from the victim.
Btw, such claim has never been a vital part of her defence. Her defence in the calunnia charge entirely hinges around the theory of false memory syndrome.

No it doesn't. Read her appeal.

I don't know where you get this fiction about filing some separate, collateral action raising the issue of coercion, but this is a fantasy. It's clear that it is enough to raise the Italian authorities illegal behavior by way of a defense to the charges that they brought against her. Show me a case where the echr refuses to address a human rights abuse simply because it was raised in the victim's defense.

 

[acbytesla]

You're wrong: imaybe you didn't absorb the concept, that the ECHR only rules on petitions concerning points that were risen with legitimate courts and have exausted the legal course. It is precisely Knox's fault if nobody investigated that specific issue, because that kind of offence cannot have a legal action started without a formal complaint from the victim.
Btw, such claim has never been a vital part of her defence. Her defence in the calunnia charge entirely hinges around the theory of false memory syndrome.

No, you are wrong Machiavelli, Amanda has petitioned the ECHR regarding her "calumny" conviction. The calumny conviction only happened as a result of what Amanda said during the interrogation that included Amanda being physically hit.

But I would agree that the slap probably won't play much in their decision. More than likely the simple fact that they didn't provide Amanda with an attorney during the interrogation will be enough for the ECHR to over rule the Italian courts.

 

[Machiavelli]

No, you are wrong Machiavelli, Amanda has petitioned the ECHR regarding her "calumny" conviction. The calumny conviction only happened as a result of what Amanda said during the interrogation that included Amanda being physically hit.

But I would agree that the slap probably won't play much in their decision. More than likely the simple fact that they didn't provide Amanda with an attorney during the interrogation will be enough for the ECHR to over rule the Italian courts.

Absolutely not. Her definitive calunnia conviction is about what Knox said within her interrogation and statements about Patrick Lumumba. Not about what she said talking about the interrogation.

 

[Diocletus]

Absolutely not. Her definitive calunnia conviction is about what Knox said within her interrogation and statements about Patrick Lumumba. Not about what she said talking about the interrogation.

Yes, exactly. It's about the words that the authorities coerced her to say.

 

[Machiavelli]

No it doesn't. Read her appeal.

Her appeal complains that the Nov. 6 hand written memoriale should be declared inadmissible, for alleged violation of art. 188 cpp.
It calls her false testimony "elaborazione fantastica". Raises no issue of police violation.

Her defence through the trial though hinges around the notion of false memory syndrome, a psychiatrist from Rome was called to testify as defence expert to this effect.

I don't know where you get this fiction about filing some separate, collateral action raising the issue of coercion, but this is a fantasy.

A complaint about an alleged beating is not collateral. It's essential, if you want an investigation to take place. Otherwise there is no case.

It's clear that it is enough to raise the Italian authorities illegal behavior by way of a defense to the charges that they brought against her.

Show me a case where the echr refuses to address a human rights abuse simply because it was raised in the victim's defense.

Knox is a defendant, not a victim. Alleged human right abuses were never raised in her defence during the trial.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes, exactly. It's about the words that the authorities coerced her to say.

Her defence does not call it "coerced statement", they call it "elaborazione fantastica".

 

[Diocletus]

Her appeal complains that the Nov. 6 hand written memoriale should be declared inadmissible, for alleged violation of art. 188 cpp.

Yeah, they broke the law when they used that statement because she didn't purposefully and voluntarily waive her procedural rights.

 

[Numbers]

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[Numbers]

ECHR

It may be useful to list the major claims or allegations Amanda Knox is likely to make in her case before the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), which is a court operating as part of the Council of Europe. The judgements of the ECHR are based on the European Convention of Human Rights (which is organized into a number of Articles) and the Court's case law. The ECHR is not an appeals court but a court devoted to protecting commonly accepted rights in the Council of Europe member states.

Likely allegations (my opinion only) against the Italian Republic:
1. Denial of (or failure to provide) a lawyer to a suspect on first interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
2. Denial of (failure to inform of) the right to remain silent under interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
3. Failure to provide a neutral and fair translator during interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
4. Conducting a coercive and abusive interrogation with the intent to overcome the suspect's will and induce the suspect to make false statements
(violation of Article 6)
5. Use of abusive treatment including but not limited to slapping the suspect, and conducting an obsessive night-time interrogation to induce the suspect to make false statements by means of inhuman or degrading treatment
(violation of Article 3)
6. Failure of the authorities to conduct an effective investigation of the allegations of abuse presented to them
(violation of Article 3)
7. Validity of any one of the above allegations indicate that the victim, Amanda Knox, did not receive a fair trial the result of which was the conviction for calunnia.
(Violation of Article 6)

If the ECHR judgement accepts the validity of any one of the above allegations, it will most likely state that the victim, Amanda Knox, did not receive a fair trial for the calunnia conviction and, at a minimum, order the Italian Republic to pay some "just satisfaction" to Ms. Knox and possibly suggest other measures, such as legal reforms, to be fulfilled by the Italian Republic at the direction of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.

The ECHR publishes handbooks - guidance documents - available online which provide discussion of the Articles of the Convention and case law. Note that for Article 6, the appropriate guidance is for the "Criminal Limb".

 

[Numbers]

From:

The prohibition of torture
A guide to the implementation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights
by Aisling Reidy A publication of the Council of Europe (c) 2002


Behaviour of the law-enforcement forces

In fact, most cases of ill-treatment happen during detention in police facilities, in the first hours of arrest, when no access to a lawyer or a doctor and no contact with the family are allowed. The aim is generally to extract a confession.
To combat this, judicial authorities should make all efforts to ensure that the rights of the detainees are both protected by law and implemented in practice. Such rights include procedural rights such as proper recording and registering of detainees, indicating when an individual is detained, by whom, where the individual is to be detained and any movement or transfer of the individual. Other safeguards include access to a lawyer and a doctor in the early stages of detention. All detentions must also be subject to the rule of law and to review by an appropriate judicial officer. All measures, legislative, administrative, judicial or other, to prevent torture and ill treat- ment should be taken and enforced by the judicial authorities. Those measures include respect for the right to liberty and security and the right to a fair trial, review of interrogation rules, legislation that evidence obtained through the use of torture, including confessions, is excluded from judicial proceedings, regular independent inspections of all places of detention, respect for the principle of non-refoulement, organisation of information on preventing torture as well as training, especially for prosecutors and judges, law-enforcement, police and military forces and health personnel. A strict regime of vigilance during this crucial period is essential, to ensure that safeguards against torture are as effective as possible. Finally , there should also be discouragement of reliance on confessions as a mode of evidence, so that law-enforcement officers are not tempted to seek to obtain confessions using inappropriate force.

 

[Desert Fox]

I have a concern. . . . Does she have to appear in front of the ECHR and in such a case she would be able to be extradited back to Italy?
Might created a catch 22 for her.

 

[Numbers]

I have a concern. . . . Does she have to appear in front of the ECHR and in such a case she would be able to be extradited back to Italy?
Might created a catch 22 for her.

No. The person (or company or organization) filing a case, called an applicant, does not need to appear. All the information is presented in documents and briefs (pleadings), and the lawyers who are representative of the applicant and the state at issue appear before the court. The judges may question the lawyers. [The setup is like the US Supreme Court in this methodology.] The court hearings are generally public, but they may be held in private, for example, if the applicant and the state are negotiating a friendly settlement. In a friendly settlement, the state acknowledges in writing - a public statement -that it has violated the applicant's rights, but desires to negotiate the amount of just satisfaction or other terms of redress.

 

[Numbers]

BTW, ECHR has some awesome statistics. Here is an example:

As of 30 Sep 2014 number of pending applications:

Total 85,000 100.0%

Italy 17,350 20.4%
Ukraine 15,500 18.2%
Russia 11,450 13.5%
Turkey 10,350 12.2%

4 States 54,600 64.3%

So Italy at 20.4% has the most pending applications, and the top 4 countries (Italy, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey) have a subtotal of 64.3% of the total 85,000 pending applications.

 

[Samson]

BTW, ECHR has some awesome statistics. Here is an example:

As of 30 Sep 2014 number of pending applications:

Total 85,000 100.0%

Italy 17,350 20.4%
Ukraine 15,500 18.2%
Russia 11,450 13.5%
Turkey 10,350 12.2%

4 States 54,600 64.3%

So Italy at 20.4% has the most pending applications, and the top 4 countries (Italy, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey) have a subtotal of 64.3% of the total 85,000 pending applications.

This is cutting to the chase. I believe it to be certain that Amanda's action will be taken very seriously, what more interesting case could come before this court?

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, I thought so

Now, let's go into a bit more detail about this crime-scene inspection. I am referring above all to the first crime-scene inspection, the initial one, because it is the most complex one in reality. The general criteria adopted were first and foremost that the technical procedures that were carried out in the house on via Della Pergola went from the inside of the house towards the outside. This was for two reasons: one main [reason] was that the body was in the furthest room along the corridor that leads towards the outside, for which reason - since the victim's room had priority because it was necessary to remove the body, it was necessary to preserve as much as possible, obviously, everything from degradation, contamination and what have you - it was [46] decided to do the crime-scene inspection of the victim's room as a priority and then in that way we would not, in effect, go back again [to that room], then carrying out the procedures towards the outside/exterior, at the same point, so that we were in fact going towards the exterior.

Like renovating a house. You start from the top down so as not to scuff up the newly painted walls and fitted carpets by traipsing over them to get to uncompleted bits. She says elsewhere in this translation that you can't collect everything because doing so would overwhelm the enquiry. Fair enough. She sure was unlucky in what she left behind, though.

 

[Samson]

Like renovating a house. You start from the top down so as not to scuff up the newly painted walls and fitted carpets by traipsing over them to get to uncompleted bits. She says elsewhere in this translation that you can't collect everything because doing so would overwhelm the enquiry. Fair enough. She sure was unlucky in what she left behind, though.

She got real lucky though.

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