'What about building 7'?

[DGM]

I believe that sometime after breaking the NE window, Mr. Jennings moved around the 8th floor and observed the damage to the southwest corner of 7 WTC.

So your belief is that Mr Jennings interviews are not accurate? The only part he is spot on about is seeing the towers erect after the explosion?

Am I correct in this? I wouldn't want to misrepresent you.

A simple yes or no will do.

 

[Miragememories]

I believe that sometime after breaking the NE window, Mr. Jennings moved around the 8th floor and observed the damage to the southwest corner of 7 WTC.

Piecing together Mr. Jenning's non-chronological listing of assorted events, my view of how he came to see the damage to the south west corner of 7 WTC was this.

Seeing how 'strict' you are in your understanding of Mr. Jennings observations from his broken timeline, I do not expect you to be in agreement with my interpretation of what happened. <explanation snipped see post 2720>

So your belief is that Mr Jennings interviews are not accurate?

The only part he is spot on about is seeing the towers erect after the explosion?

Am I correct in this? I wouldn't want to misrepresent you.

A simple yes or no will do.

I believe I answered that question in an earlier post.

The things Mr. Jennings said are for the most part, all accurate.

The problem stems from the fact that his statements come from a rambling interview and not an organized, chronologically edited statement.

He lists his experiences and observations while his interviewers give him free rein and rarely inject the kind of questions that would avoid the timeline confusion that results from such an undisciplined interview.

Take the quote below for example.

Obviously from a time perspective it seriously fails to convey anything about what happened between those two events.

But, over a number of re-tellings and a couple of interviews, more pieces to the timeline puzzle can be added.

"I said "there's only one thing we can do and that's go back up."

So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

As I said before;

Obviously he is so familiar with his own story, after no doubt telling it repeatedly over the last several years, that he keeps 'cutting to the chase'.

Rather than drearily go over the tedious chronology of events for the umpteenth time, he attempts to hilite the items that he believes would be of interest to the camera.

A lot of mundane stuff must have happened to the two men when they arrived at the 8th floor.

Better interviewers would have plied Mr. Jennings with questions which would have compelled him to methodically go over the series of events that transpired.

Unfortunately, they gave him too much free rein and little, to no direction.

Keep in mind, the things he did observe have not been proven to be untrue. The biggest problem is that the interviewers failed to get enough details out of him.

Realizing that his meandering wasn't making it clear how he knew that the WTC twin towers were still standing, his interviewers explain to him how important it is that he explain why he can be so sure.

"It definitely happened before either tower fell and I'll tell you why.."

[Cutoff by helicopter passing overhead]

"Barry I'm sorry could you just wait for that chopper because this is vital! Because the whole Official Story, the whole reason that Building 7 collapsed allegedly, was because the North Tower fell onto it and caused damage. And what people are going to say, is they're going to say "Barry was hit by debris from the North Tower."

"No. What happened was - when we made it back to the 8th floor, --- as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked -- [he points] Two [pauses]..."

[He repeats again.]

"When I got to the 6th floor there was an explosion that forced us back to the 8th floor.

Both buildings were still standing."

When compelled by his interviewers, Mr. Jennings is not confusing and very certain of his observation.

 

[DGM]

I believe I answered that question in an earlier post.

The things Mr. Jennings said are for the most part, all accurate.

The problem stems from the fact that his statements come from a rambling interview and not an organized, chronologically edited statement.

He lists his experiences and observations while his interviewers give him free rein and rarely inject the kind of questions that would avoid the timeline confusion that results from such an undisciplined interview.

Take the quote below for example.

Obviously from a time perspective it seriously fails to convey anything about what happened between those two events.

But, over a number of re-tellings and a couple of interviews, more pieces to the timeline puzzle can be added.

​

As I said before;

[Cutoff by helicopter passing overhead]


[He repeats again.]
​

When compelled by his interviewers, Mr. Jennings is not confusing and very certain of his observation.

So the answer to my question (in your opinion) is yes.

That's not so hard, right?

The only truly accurate part is that he saw the towers intact after the explosion.

 

[DGM]

MM:

All you have to do now is show how everyone else screwed you their time-lines making Mr Jennings right.

Up to that challenge?

 

[Miragememories]

So your belief is that Mr Jennings interviews are not accurate?

I believe I answered that question in an earlier post.

The things Mr. Jennings said are for the most part, all accurate.

The problem stems from the fact that his statements come from a rambling interview and not an organized, chronologically edited statement.

He lists his experiences and observations while his interviewers give him free rein and rarely inject the kind of questions that would avoid the timeline confusion that results from such an undisciplined interview.

Take the quote below for example.

"I said "there's only one thing we can do and that's go back up."

So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

Obviously from a time perspective it seriously fails to convey anything about what happened between those two events.

But, over a number of re-tellings and a couple of interviews, more pieces to the timeline puzzle can be added.

So the answer to my question (in your opinion) is yes.

The only truly accurate part is that he saw the towers intact after the explosion.

NO. Not at all.

As expected, you continue to see and read what you wish to be true, regardless of whether that is the case.

The facts in Mr. Jenning's testimony are accurate;

• He got a call on his way to work to man the 7 WTC OEM.
• He was told a small plane hit 1 WTC.
• He saw police in the lobby when he arrived at 7 WTC.
• He took the automatic elevator to the 23rd floor OEM but it was locked.
• The police took him back up to the 23rd floor OEM via freight elevator and he gained entry.
• He was with Mr. Michael Hess.
• He observed that the OEM was empty.
• He observed half eaten food and drinks.
• He was ordered by a superior to evacuate.
• He experienced an explosion when he reached the 6th floor.
• He was unable to descend further than the 6th floor stairwell landing.
• The emergency lights went out in the stairwell.
• He went to the 8th floor.
• He observed the WTC twin towers were still standing.
• He observed the 8th floor become dark.
• He smelled smoke.
• He felt the increasing heat.
• He experienced repeated explosions.
• He broke out two windows.
• He observed burning police cars and buses on fire.

So I believe that content-wise, Mr. Jenning's interviews are accurate.

What I do not believe is properly conveyed, is the timeline for the content.

I lay the blame for that problem squarely in the lap of Mr. Jenning's interviewers.

All you have to do now is show how everyone else screwed you their time-lines making Mr Jennings right.

I have shown this.

The NIST, and the BBC, which used the NIST report as a blueprint for misinterpreting Mr. Jennings, have done what they could to re-construct the timeline revealed by Mr. Jenning's testimony.

For Mr. Jenning's repeated assertion that he saw the WTC twin towers still standing from the 8th floor to be accurate, he had to make that observation a few minutes before 10:00 am.

Back timing, it would take him seconds to get to the 8th floor from the 6th floor.

From the 23rd floor to the 6th floor, he could have made that hurried descent, according to AJM, in as little as 2 minutes.

No doubt he wasn't that fast, but certainly it did not take him half an hour.

He could have arrived at the 6th floor at 10:50 and the 8th floor at 10:52.

At 10:55 he could have sighted the WTC twin towers and by 10:59 he could easily have been in a location that did not offer a clear view of the towers.

Now the screwed timelines of others you mention.

The NIST claims the final evacuation call at 7 WTC was supposedly at 09:44ish yet we know the 23rd floor OEM was empty when Mr. Jennings arrived.

My research indicates the OEM was empty well before that time.

We do not know how long Mr. Jennings was there before he was ordered by phone to evacuate.

But, the important timeline conflict is created by the NIST.

They claim that at 10:59 am, Mr. Jennings was standing outside an elevator on the 23rd floor and that the lights flickered, signalling the collapse of 2 WTC.

All the remaining occupants in 7 WTC at that time (of which there were few), experienced a period of deafening noise and accompanying building shake.

Mr. Jennings did not mention any explosion-like experience while on the 23rd floor, which argues that he could not have been at that location.

Nor did Mr. Jennings mention the light flicker or waiting at an elevator.

Note standard evacuation procedure is to use the stairs and not the elevator.

Mr. Jennings, first reference to an explosion experience was when he reached the 6th floor.

That would put the NIST projected timeline ~30 minutes out of sync with that of Mr. Jennings.

Because, if not an explosion of unknown origin, it had to mean 2 WTC (farther away than 1 WTC), was the source.

Very, very unlikely.

After the 6th floor stairwell landing explosion, Mr. Jennings was conscious of repeated explosions.

Keep in mind, that even though Mr. Hess altered his statement years later, on 9/11 both he and Mr. Jennings stated they experienced an explosion when they reached the 6th floor of 7 WTC.

As I see it, the only real case you have for disputing Mr. Jenning's statement is the lack of additional witnesses to corroborate the 6th floor explosion.

The absence of witnesses for one side of the argument is not sufficient reason to nullify the existence of witnesses for the other.

Additionally, it must be noted that on 9/11, Mr. Jenning's rescuer claimed that access to the 8th floor was impeded because both west and east stairwell backsides were "blown out".

 

[Spanx]

MM, how would you expect someone's memory to be in extreme circumstances ?

Would you say better

Worse

Or the same as usual

 

[DGM]

The NIST claims the final evacuation call at 7 WTC was supposedly at 09:44ish yet we know the 23rd floor OEM was empty when Mr. Jennings arrived.

My research indicates the OEM was empty well before that time.

We do not know how long Mr. Jennings was there before he was ordered by phone to evacuate.

But, the important timeline conflict is created by the NIST.

The NIST does not claim anything, the people they interviewed did. You typed that whole thing to avoid the question;

"All you have to do now is show how everyone else screwed up their time-lines making Mr Jennings right".

So I believe that content-wise, Mr. Jenning's interviews are accurate.

What I do not believe is properly conveyed, is the timeline for the content.

I would never argue with that (although he may have embellished his account some in later interviews).

Move when he actually saw the towers to earlier, and his facts line up with all the other accounts.

 

[Redwood]

[*]He observed burning police cars and buses on fire.

Thank you for showing us the vehicles north of WTC 7 that were set afire by flaming debris from the North Tower. The "official story" requires that WTC 7 be hit by flaming debris, though neither the Verizon Building, the Post Office, nor Fiterman Hall were hit, or if they were, the amount was negligible.

How, in your opinion, was the Vast Conspiracy able to calculate the distribution of flaming debris? Is their technology THAT advanced?

Or did stealth Ninjas set fire to WTC 7, and vehicles north of it, as part of the great deception? If so, why not set fire to the adjoining buildings, as well?

Still waiting for an answer from any Truther as to how the Conspiracy managed to plant demolition charges around the columns supporting the East Penthouse without anyone noticing, what with the columns being right in the middle of rentable space, unconcealed by any facade. If Truthers can figure out how or where these changes were placed, they'll be close to nailing the perps!

 

[GlennB]

If Truthers can figure out how or where these changes were placed, they'll be close to nailing the perps!

It's much worse than that. MM believes that WTC7 was 'supposed/intended' to have fallen in the immediate wake of WTC1's collapse, where the perps would have no excuse whatsoever for its fall, not even several hours of fire.

Go figure.

 

[jaydeehess]

It's much worse than that. MM believes that WTC7 was 'supposed/intended' to have fallen in the immediate wake of WTC1's collapse, where the perps would have no excuse whatsoever for its fall, not even several hours of fire.

Go figure.

Which makes the placing of charges in the penthouse area problematic since that where Catalano was.

 

[DGM]

Which makes the placing of charges in the penthouse area problematic since that where Catalano was.

You need to check where he was against Mr Jennings time-line. As we all know he's the only one that got it right (or atleast the one crucial aspect that all accounts have to work back from).

 

[Redwood]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
Which makes the placing of charges in the penthouse area problematic since that where Catalano was.

You need to check where he was against Mr Jennings time-line. As we all know he's the only one that got it right (or atleast the one crucial aspect that all accounts have to work back from).

According to Catalano, he had been bringing stuff down from the fitness center on the 44th floor down to Vesey St. for use in a makeshift triage center when the South Tower fell. He said that dust was sucked into the generator room, jamming the generators and causing them to catch fire.

He says there was smoke in the stairwell before the second tower fell and that he was just making his way out onto Barclay St. to the north when the second tower fell, debris falling all around him. (http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00136.pdf)

 

[jaydeehess]

What I meant was that Catalano was on the 47 and rooftop structure when the planes hit. If explosives were rigged up after that there wasnt much time to do so.
Furthermore the rooftop machinery was manned for some time.

If the supposed explosives were placed prior to that it needs noting that Catalano is an engineer and somehow the modifications were hidden from him.

 

[JSanderO]

This Catelano memo is interesting because it attributes the fires in 7wtc to overheating from intake of smoke which clogged the generators... not ignition from falling 1wtc debris. This memo also supports the notion that the fires were roaring in the region of the diesel generators fueled by possibly as much as 20,000 of HVAC coolant and 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored on premises.

Interesting that memo.

 

[Richard the G]

This Catelano memo is interesting because it attributes the fires in 7wtc to overheating from intake of smoke which clogged the generators... not ignition from falling 1wtc debris. This memo also supports the notion that the fires were roaring in the region of the diesel generators fueled by possibly as much as 20,000 of HVAC coolant and 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored on premises.

Interesting that memo.

I expect it would be inconvenient for the ae911truth movement to dwell on this. So they don't

 

[DGM]

This Catelano memo is interesting because it attributes the fires in 7wtc to overheating from intake of smoke which clogged the generators... not ignition from falling 1wtc debris. This memo also supports the notion that the fires were roaring in the region of the diesel generators fueled by possibly as much as 20,000 of HVAC coolant and 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored on premises.

Interesting that memo.

HVAC coolant?

I find it hard to believe the gen-sets ingesting dust would cause them to catch fire. If the intakes or radiators get clogged they simply shut down.

 

[jaydeehess]

• He got a call on his way to work to man the 7 WTC OEM.
  not his regular place of work.
• He was told a small plane hit 1 WTC.
• He saw police in the lobby when he arrived at 7 WTC.
  As opposed to the crowded lobby that Catalano describes through the impact of the second aircraft and for a time after that.
• He took the automatic elevator to the 23rd floor OEM but it was locked.
• The police took him back up to the 23rd floor OEM via freight elevator and he gained entry.
  Yes, two trips. Up, down, back up again
• He was with Mr. Michael Hess.
• He observed that the OEM was empty.
• He observed half eaten food and drinks.
  In the office which logic dictates would be the last to be evacuated.
• He was ordered by a superior to evacuate.
  After making several calls one individual was surprised to learn they were in the OEM.
• He experienced an explosion when he reached the 6th floor.
  Since there is no other evidence after this , that the stairwell was physically damaged, an explosion is unlikely. Hess is adamant in the later interview " no explosion".
• He was unable to descend further than the 6th floor stairwell landing.
• The emergency lights went out in the stairwell.
  The lights went out and the stairwell filled with heavy choking dust ,much more dust than they had experienced while descending from approx the 11th/12th floor down to the sixth where the lights went out and the bulding shook for several seconds.
• He went to the 8th floor.
• He observed the WTC twin towers were still standing.
• He observed the 8th floor become dark.
  Reversed order. When he got to the eighth floor it was dark. He may have walked south from the doorway to the stairs. He observes that "the building" singular, is there when he looks one way and "gone" when he looks the other way. His use of the singular does not indicate that he is referring to their towers (plural) but it fits very well with his looking to the east side of the building he is in and then looking the other way, to the western corner, to see that corner "gone".
• He smelled smoke.
  Yep, many buildings in the area, including WTC7 itself are on fire.
• He felt the increasing heat.
  No air handling, lots of dust, coming closer to noon on a nice day, the building he is in is on fire.
• He experienced repeated explosions.
  Vehicles on fire, tires and fuel tanks blowing, continued chunks of building falling off WTC5, 6, and 7.
• He broke out two windows.
  No conclusive evidence of a second window being broken. He uses the singular later. Suggests that he means the multiple panes in one window frame as he would have had to smash them consecutively.
• He observed burning police cars and buses on fire.

Definitely places this after both towers have fallen.
[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/NEBurnedOutVehicles_zpsb0b4a509.png[/qimg]


No change in timeline is required other than his obviously incorrect time of arrival at WTC7 which had to be after the second aircraft impact.

What's missing? No mention at all about the building shaking EXCEPT when , simultaneously, the lights go out and the stairwell fills with a huge amount of dust. According to his poarner this shaking lasts several seconds.

Certainly no explosion, that no one else in the building comments on at all, would cause a long term shaking such as this. However the debris fall and impact of debris on WTC7 would last several seconds, would fill the lower floors, including the stairwell, with choking dust, and would quite likely cause even emergency lighting to fail in many parts of the building.

With this being the sole mention of choking dust, with this being the sole mention of the building shaking, and knowing full well that the greatest occurrence of both of these effects would be due to the impact of WTC1 debris and massive dust cloud, LOGIC and REASON dictate that this incident in the stairwell was coincident with and caused by, the collapse of WTC1.

Given that the effects of the farther WTC2 would be much greater on lower floors where debris hit WTC7, broke windows, and filled those floors with dust, including the west stairwell which had its door to the street open due to FFs utilizing the interior standpipe, its quite possible that without visuals of that collapse, Jennings and Hess did not experience any effect of that collapse while on the 23rd floor.

 

[Norseman]

This Catelano memo is interesting because it attributes the fires in 7wtc to overheating from intake of smoke which clogged the generators... not ignition from falling 1wtc debris. This memo also supports the notion that the fires were roaring in the region of the diesel generators fueled by possibly as much as 20,000 of HVAC coolant and 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored on premises.

Interesting that memo.

We have covered this earlier in the thread. It should be noted that he was on the 4th floor below the 5th floor were the generators were located, so he was in no position to actually know if the generators were on fire or not. It is very likely that Catalano thought that the generators were burning, because he found the stairwell he opened filled with smoke, and that the stairwell lighting shining through the smoke gave an impression of fire. But he eventually went down that stairwell.

This was the west side stairwell, that exited on Washington Street. At the time the exterior door to that stairwell was open, because Engine 76 was taking water from WTC 7 and pumping it into the standpipe Siamese below WTC 6, across Vesey Street. So when WTC 2 collapsed dust and smoke were forced up into that stairwell, likely explaining why Cantalano thought the generators were burning on the floor above.

At 7:05 in the video that showed the WTC 2 lobby area after the collapse of WTC 2, there is a view of the southwest corner of WTC 7, where five of the generators were located. There is no sign of fire there. And as can be seen earlier in the video the lights were on inside the building, showing that the generators were working. NIST also concluded in NIST NCSTAR 1-9 that they could not find any sign of fire on Floor 5 or 6, at any stage.

 

[Spanx]

HVAC coolant?

I find it hard to believe the gen-sets ingesting dust would cause them to catch fire. If the intakes or radiators get clogged they simply shut down.

And produce black smoke before shutting down.

 

[jaydeehess]

And produce black smoke before shutting down.

Well they would being doing so during the time of greatest airborne dust. It may escape being noticed by anyone.