Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[AmyStrange]

Put up or shut up p

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Oh, I know very well what the point of my post was but I can’t say your argument surprises me – to put it very mildly.

Whatever about other cases you can’t surely be intimating that the Kercher family were involved in MK’s murder ??

Although given the abuse directed at her family (and to a certain extent everyone involved in the prosecution case – especially female cops/prosecutors/witnesses) anything is possible. It’s no more absurd or vile than many of the arguments posted here or elsewhere.

But there is one obvious difference – the unfortunate character in the piece I linked to took her own life when exposed. Many of the Knox groupies, whether anonymous or not, seem to positively revel in and be proud of abusing the murder victim and her family.

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I'm going to call you out on this one p. Show me just one post in this thread where anyone abused Meredith.

Maresca (with the permission of her parents no less) did that worse (with his display of Meredith's death photo in open court) than anything I've ever seen anywhere or at anytime by any Imper, and I've never seen one Gumper take Maresca to task for this. Gumpers have abused Meredith, in this regard, more than anyone anywhere, in my opinion.

Come on p, either put up or shut up,

d

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[Ampulla of Vater]

Oh, I know very well what the point of my post was but I can’t say your argument surprises me – to put it very mildly.

Whatever about other cases you can’t surely be intimating that the Kercher family were involved in MK’s murder ??

Although given the abuse directed at her family (and to a certain extent everyone involved in the prosecution case – especially female cops/prosecutors/witnesses) anything is possible. It’s no more absurd or vile than many of the arguments posted here or elsewhere.

But there is one obvious difference – the unfortunate character in the piece I linked to took her own life when exposed. Many of the Knox groupies, whether anonymous or not, seem to positively revel in and be proud of abusing the murder victim and her family.

Look, nasty, rotten people exist. The internet makes it even easier for them to hurl verbal abuse, since it allows it to be done anonymously. I have not personally seen any vile attack on the Kerchers, although I do not doubt it occasionally occurs. OTOH, the amount of vile abuse aimed at Knox and Sollecito is voluminous, continuous, obnoxious, and initiated from a small, inbred group of people who have sadly (and abnormally) made it their mission in life to positively revel in, and be proud of, abusing innocent people.

 

[Planigale]

Oh, I know very well what the point of my post was but I can’t say your argument surprises me – to put it very mildly.

Whatever about other cases you can’t surely be intimating that the Kercher family were involved in MK’s murder ??

Although given the abuse directed at her family (and to a certain extent everyone involved in the prosecution case – especially female cops/prosecutors/witnesses) anything is possible. It’s no more absurd or vile than many of the arguments posted here or elsewhere.

But there is one obvious difference – the unfortunate character in the piece I linked to took her own life when exposed. Many of the Knox groupies, whether anonymous or not, seem to positively revel in and be proud of abusing the murder victim and her family.

This is an extraordinary example of cognitive dissonance, or to be fair to Platanov perhaps he did not read the article he quotes. There does seem to be an overlap between those who posted about McCanns' guilt and those who posted about Sollecito and Knox being guilty. Both seem to be examples of on line bullying. A poster under the name of Graham Rhodes who believes in the guilt of Sollecito and Knox seems to have veered from misogyny to advocating what appear to be criminal acts. Unlike the McCann case the person guilty of the murder of Ms. Kercher is convicted and in prison. Somewhat similar is the fact that the police investigating the case initially suspected the McCanns just as they initially suspected Knox. Both seem to be examples of gut instinct policing then using dubious forensics to support prior beliefs, rather than letting evidence direct suspicions. This has been followed by various on line web sites propagating disinformation with an apparent need to convince the world of the guilt of innocent parties.

FWIW I think Sky have some questions to answer, as they may have veered into broadcast bullying. I think broadcasters have to think carefully about picking on ordinary people.

 

[platonov]

Amanda is the victim here

So, the usual .....there are no attacks, Amanda is the victim here etc etc.
Very good.

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I'm going to call you out on this one p. Show me just one post in this thread where anyone abused Meredith.

Maresca (with the permission of her parents no less) did that worse (with his display of Meredith's death photo in open court) than anything I've ever seen anywhere or at anytime by any Imper, and I've never seen one Gumper take Maresca to task for this. Gumpers have abused Meredith, in this regard, more than anyone anywhere, in my opinion.

Come on p, either put up or shut up,

d

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Put up eh, Not sure it would achieve anything as everything gets forgotten in groundhog/cartwheel world apparently.

But if you search for .......
my username & 'these impotent howls of rage/race hate will only increase in stridency and frequency as the judicial process grinds to its expected outcome'
.........you will find a typical example.

If that doesn't work a search for a post by a user called 'AmyStrange' which contains the following

'I have enjoyed many if not all of your post, and I don't necessarily disagree with your anti-Kercher comment.'

should work.

Let me know if you cant find it.

 

[Samson]

The great unravelling

Jar says just now

Skep said on Monday the 25th August


The document has been translated and thoroughly proof read. I am about to go through it one last time prior to making it available later this week.

Silk purses from sows' ears? I don't think so.

 

[carbonjam72]

This is an extraordinary example of cognitive dissonance, or to be fair to Platanov perhaps he did not read the article he quotes. There does seem to be an overlap between those who posted about McCanns' guilt and those who posted about Sollecito and Knox being guilty. Both seem to be examples of on line bullying. A poster under the name of Graham Rhodes who believes in the guilt of Sollecito and Knox seems to have veered from misogyny to advocating what appear to be criminal acts. Unlike the McCann case the person guilty of the murder of Ms. Kercher is convicted and in prison. Somewhat similar is the fact that the police investigating the case initially suspected the McCanns just as they initially suspected Knox. Both seem to be examples of gut instinct policing then using dubious forensics to support prior beliefs, rather than letting evidence direct suspicions. This has been followed by various on line web sites propagating disinformation with an apparent need to convince the world of the guilt of innocent parties.

FWIW I think Sky have some questions to answer, as they may have veered into broadcast bullying. I think broadcasters have to think carefully about picking on ordinary people.

Isn't broadcast and newspaper bullying ALL the tabloid media does?

 

[NancyS]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...enda-leyland-madeleine-mccann-trolling-claims

A sad tale but one with possible parallels to the Kercher case.

I'm glad you can recognise the similarities - there has been sustained abuse directed at AK/RS, their families as well as various journalists who have written articles to support them. Nina Burleigh is currently frequently attacked on twitter, which includes distributing some fake posters with her photo and belittling her work

Also a number of the anonymous accounts posting about AK/RS are also posting about the McCanns

 

[AmyStrange]

So, in other words p...

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So, the usual .....there are no attacks, Amanda is the victim here etc etc.
Very good.
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I'm going to call you out on this one p. Show me just one post in this thread where anyone abused Meredith.

Maresca (with the permission of her parents no less) did that worse (with his display of Meredith's death photo in open court) than anything I've ever seen anywhere or at anytime by any Imper, and I've never seen one Gumper take Maresca to task for this. Gumpers have abused Meredith, in this regard, more than anyone anywhere, in my opinion.

Come on p, either put up or shut up,

d

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Put up eh, Not sure it would achieve anything as everything gets forgotten in groundhog/cartwheel world apparently.

But if you search for .......
my username & 'these impotent howls of rage/race hate will only increase in stridency and frequency as the judicial process grinds to its expected outcome'
.........you will find a typical example.

If that doesn't work a search for a post by a user called 'AmyStrange' which contains the following

'I have enjoyed many if not all of your post, and I don't necessarily disagree with your anti-Kercher comment.'

should work.

Let me know if you cant find it.

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...you've got nothing to back up your bald-faced, "Many of the Knox groupies, whether anonymous or not, seem to positively revel in and be proud of abusing the murder victim," lie with.

I thought so. Typical Rudy-groupie, Brenda-Leyland-like troll talk, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: Maybe you should take some reading comprehension courses p, because I'm talking about Meredith being abused here, NOT the Kerchers.

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[NancyS]

platonov, the Kercher family are legitimate targets for criticism. They need money to pay their bills, and in all probability have a deal with the lawyer Maresca. To break ranks will leave them exposed financially. This is a catastrophic situation for the innocent parties in this lethal chess game. You can rail to your heart's content that this must be a wrong conclusion, but if it is so, a strong alternative theory for their total refusal to engage with the Knox and Sollecito families is required. It is very unusual for a rejection of friendly overtures, where the victims are many for differing reasons.

I don't agree with any criticism being directed at the Kercher family. They are going to be coming from a position of horrendous and life altering grief, which will prevent them from being able to have an objective opinion and also makes them incredibly vulnerable to manipulation. However, it is entirely fair to criticise their lawyer and it is also fair to argue that they should have no voice during the trial process as this is likely to cause bias.

What is concerning, is that many of the anonymous twitter accounts, particularly those associated with PMF, are claiming to be speaking for and endorsed by Meredith Kercher's family - is that true?

 

[AmyStrange]

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I don't agree with any criticism being directed at the Kercher family. They are going to be coming from a position of horrendous and life altering grief, which will prevent them from being able to have an objective opinion and also makes them incredibly vulnerable to manipulation. However, it is entirely fair to criticise their lawyer and it is also fair to argue that they should have no voice during the trial process as this is likely to cause bias.

What is concerning, is that many of the anonymous twitter accounts, particularly those associated with PMF, are claiming to be speaking for and endorsed by Meredith Kercher's family - is that true?

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Although I agree with everything you said about criticizing the Kerchers, I have to add that it saddened me deeply when they allowed Maresca to show Meredith's death photo on a big screen in open court. They really should be ashamed of themselves for that, in my opinion.

It would be different if that act (showing it on a big screen in open court) had even a smidgen of evidentiary value, but it didn't, not even a tiny, tiny little bit, in my opinion,

d

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[NancyS]

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Although I agree with everything you said about criticizing the Kerchers, I have to add that it saddened me deeply when they allowed Maresca to show Meredith's death photo in open court. They really should be ashamed of themselves for that, in my opinion.

It would be different if that act had even a smidgen of evidentiary value, but it didn't, not even a tiny, tiny little bit, in my opinion,

d

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It would probably have been too difficult for them to say no to their lawyer, if there lawyer was stressing the importance of this - the whole thing is beyond imaginable for the family and likely to severely mess with their mental health. They were unlikely to be in any condition to make good decisions

 

[Samson]

I don't agree with any criticism being directed at the Kercher family. They are going to be coming from a position of horrendous and life altering grief, which will prevent them from being able to have an objective opinion and also makes them incredibly vulnerable to manipulation. However, it is entirely fair to criticise their lawyer and it is also fair to argue that they should have no voice during the trial process as this is likely to cause bias.

What is concerning, is that many of the anonymous twitter accounts, particularly those associated with PMF, are claiming to be speaking for and endorsed by Meredith Kercher's family - is that true?

I have many times posted the formal document challenging Hellman, and they announced their intention to do so before his reasoning was published. I find their behaviour completely beyond the pail.

 

[AmyStrange]

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It would probably have been too difficult for them to say no to their lawyer, if there lawyer was stressing the importance of this - the whole thing is beyond imaginable for the family and likely to severely mess with their mental health. They were unlikely to be in any condition to make good decisions

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Yes, I agree that unless you've lost a loved one in the same way they lost Meredith, it's difficult to imagine what they're going through, but that's their freakin' daughter Nancy, and I just find it very difficult to give them a free pass on this one thing.

It's really the only criticism of the Kerchers that I have. Otherwise, I can understand and sympathize with everything else they've done or said,

d

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[moije2]

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Yes, I agree that unless you've lost a loved one in the same way they lost Meredith, it's difficult to imagine what they're going through, but that's their freakin' daughter Nancy, and I just find it very difficult to give them a free pass on this one thing.

It's really the only criticism of the Kerchers that I have. Otherwise, I can understand and sympathize with everything else they've done or said,

d

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No can know what it is like to be in their shoes. That goes EVEN for others who have lost a loved one to violence AND had the prosecutors target the wrong suspects. Everyone is different and brings different experience and baggage to the table so to speak.

The Kercher family is in a way similar to Amanda and Raffaele in that they have been involuntarily thrust into a situation, a situation which has earned the media spotlight for better or worse. How they react is revealing of character and we should be slow to criticize that as well. One can discuss purported "dignified silence" and/or bella figura perhaps.

Unfortunately, the Kerchers have become participants - whether they like it or not - in the prosecution of this criminal case. At some point a moral responsibility for one's attorneys does attach. I won't argue that specifically. They do earn <some> leeway. But not complete.

 

[Desert Fox]

No can know what it is like to be in their shoes. That goes EVEN for others who have lost a loved one to violence AND had the prosecutors target the wrong suspects. Everyone is different and brings different experience and baggage to the table so to speak.

The Kercher family is in a way similar to Amanda and Raffaele in that they have been involuntarily thrust into a situation, a situation which has earned the media spotlight for better or worse. How they react is revealing of character and we should be slow to criticize that as well. One can discuss purported "dignified silence" and/or bella figura perhaps.

Unfortunately, the Kerchers have become participants - whether they like it or not - in the prosecution of this criminal case. At some point a moral responsibility for one's attorneys does attach. I won't argue that specifically. They do earn <some> leeway. But not complete.

This is how I feel mostly. You can condemn their position and criticize them for having but still you should understand that it is almost impossible for them to be rational about the issue.

 

[AmyStrange]

SMART lawyers don't do things like this...

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No can know what it is like to be in their shoes. That goes EVEN for others who have lost a loved one to violence AND had the prosecutors target the wrong suspects. Everyone is different and brings different experience and baggage to the table so to speak.

The Kercher family is in a way similar to Amanda and Raffaele in that they have been involuntarily thrust into a situation, a situation which has earned the media spotlight for better or worse. How they react is revealing of character and we should be slow to criticize that as well. One can discuss purported "dignified silence" and/or bella figura perhaps.

Unfortunately, the Kerchers have become participants - whether they like it or not - in the prosecution of this criminal case. At some point a moral responsibility for one's attorneys does attach. I won't argue that specifically. They do earn <some> leeway. But not complete.

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Good point m, and I'd like to add that the family should also have a moral responsibility to protect the memory of their daughter (sister or niece), at least by their own actions or the actions of their lawyer.

Hell, I'd be upset even if the Kercher's gave permission to their lawyer to show a death photo of their daughter on a big screen in open court at Rudy's trial.
It's not the act so much that I'm upset about, it's the loss of dignity to their daughter that really bothers me more than anything. It's disrespectful of her memory.

And like I've said before, if it had evidentiary value, that would be different, but it didn't. The same thing could have been accomplished by passing out photos to the prosecution, defense, and jurist, but showing it on a big screen in open court was not only disrespectful of Meredith, but also stupid, callous, and inflammatory.

Mach argued that it was Hellman's fault not Maresca's, but that's a cop-out because it wasn't Hellman who decided to go this legal route, but Maresca himself (with the permission of Meredith's parents). Hellman had no choice really but allow it, because doing that in court in Italy is not illegal and he really couldn't stop it.

There's a reason why they very rarely allow that type of thing in US courts (or even allow really disturbing photos to be shown to the jury) it's not only inflammatory towards the defendant, but it's also unnecessary if less disturbing photos can be used, and also because it's grounds for a reversal on appeal.

Not only that, but SMART lawyers also know that too much of this kind of evidence can also be damaging to their case, as I explained and posted here (a couple --2, 3-- days before the Hellman court decision was read) in my reasoning for guaranteeing that both Raffaele and Amanda would be found not guilty.

It's why SMART lawyers don't do this sort of thing, which says a lot about Maresca, who should have known better, but obviously didn't, in my opinion,

d

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[platonov]

Lear updated – writes but cannot read English.

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...you've got nothing to back up your bald-faced, "Many of the Knox groupies, whether anonymous or not, seem to positively revel in and be proud of abusing the murder victim," lie with.

I thought so. Typical Rudy-groupie, Brenda-Leyland-like troll talk, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: Maybe you should take some reading comprehension courses p, because I'm talking about Meredith being abused here, NOT the Kerchers.

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Bow Wow Wow

If you ever track down this AmyStrange post & what it was he/she was uncertain about the mystery may be solved.

'I have enjoyed many if not all of your post, and I don't necessarily disagree with your anti-Kercher comment.'

Or not.

ETA How do you know that the example referred to by me ( & you ! ) is not about MK & her family ?

 

[AmyStrange]

Because unlike you p...

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Bow Wow Wow

If you ever track down this AmyStrange post & what it was he/she was uncertain about the mystery may be solved.

'I have enjoyed many if not all of your post, and I don't necessarily disagree with your anti-Kercher comment.'

Or not.

ETA How do you that the example referred to by me ( & you ! ) is not about MK & her family ?

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...I have taken reading comprehension courses and know what I'm writing about, and also because I know I've never ever attacked Meredith here or anywhere, unlike much of the typical Rudy-groupie, Brenda-Leyland-like troll nonsense I read here from Gumpers.

Prove me wrong p. You haven't yet and all I've read from you so far is a desperate attempt to salvage whatever little dignity you never had, in my opinion.

By the way, you do know the article you originally posted was about someone (Brenda Leyland) trolling the family because she thought they got away with murder, which is exactly what Gumpers do to Raffaele and Amanda and their families (which is the parallel you were unknowingly and laughingly referring to), and I've also heard rumours that some of these same Gumpers were also trolling the McCann family. Is this true p?

Seems to me your whole rant has backfired back on you. I can't really blame you for trying to save what little rep you never had. It's only human nature, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: I do wish the Kerchers would look at the evidence (which are the post you refer to above), but I can understand and sympathize why they don't

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[NancyS]

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I've also heard rumours that some of these same Gumpers were also trolling the McCann family. Is this true p?

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Yes, many of the anonymous pro-guilt on twitter, are tweeting about both AK/RS and the McCanns

 

[platonov]

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...I have taken reading comprehension courses and know what I'm writing about, and also because I know I've never ever attacked Meredith here or anywhere, unlike much of the typical Rudy-groupie, Brenda-Leyland-like troll nonsense I read here from Gumpers.

Prove me wrong p. You haven't yet and all I've read from you so far is a desperate attempt to salvage whatever little dignity you never had, in my opinion.

By the way, you do know the article you originally posted was about someone (Brenda Leyland) trolling the family because she thought they got away with murder, which is exactly what Gumpers do to Raffaele and Amanda and their families (which is the parallel you were unknowingly and laughingly referring to), and I've also heard rumours that some of these same Gumpers were also trolling the McCann family. Is this true p?

Seems to me your whole rant has backfired back on you. I can't really blame you for trying to save what little rep you never had. It's only human nature, in my opinion,

d

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ETA: I do wish the Kerchers would look at the evidence (which are the post you refer to above), but I can understand and sympathize why they don't

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Indeed. I must look quite the fool


Thankfully everyone else will have forgotten about this episode by tomorrow.