Sexual misconduct allegations against Radford, Shermer, et al. Part 2

[Verklagekasper]

I guess people feel confident that nothing will go wrong.

That doesn't explain why a person who helped organize a JREF event drank herself senseless at that very event to the point that she, as she claims, had to be walked out in a wheelchair. I'm flabbergasted that such behavior appears to be considered perfectly normal.

 

[Horatius]

And the wheel chair. I want to hear from a witness that the wheel chair was necessary and not just a fun/convenient mode of transportation. I have seen too many drunk people having a ball with hotel wheel chairs.

Believing that the wheelchair thing is something I did for fun when I've already said that I was crying in an elevator and saying I didn't know where I was is a **** thing.

Not only is it a **** thing to believe, but once again, it's entirely irrelevant now to figuring out who is telling the truth.


I said it before, and I guess I'll have to say it again: If Remie was drunk after leaving Shermer's room, that proves he's now lying about her being sober when they had sex.


Even if you think the wheelchair was just some drunken, "Whooo! I'm in a Wheelchair! Wheeeeeeee!" kind of thing, that still means she was drunk. Which makes Shermer a liar.

How is this not painfully clear?

At this point, "How drunk was she?" is not the important question to answer in order to determine who to believe. "Was she at all drunk?" is the key question, because Shermer is now claiming that the answer to that question is "No".

Screw facts, this is just plain logic.

 

[colander]

That doesn't explain why a person who helped organize a JREF event drank herself senseless at that very event to the point that she, as she claims, had to be walked out in a wheelchair. I'm flabbergasted that such behavior appears to be considered perfectly normal.

yes I think you've cut straight to the real issue here

a proper lady organizer must not do such things

i certainly hope she does not get away with it!

 

[qayak]

Even if you think the wheelchair was just some drunken, "Whooo! I'm in a Wheelchair! Wheeeeeeee!" kind of thing, that still means she was drunk.

Ummmm. . . no. That's not how events between friends work. I never said it was her who was drunk which is why I wanted to hear from a witness.

They walked from the elevator to her hotel room don't forget. The wheel chair was used later when she insisted on leaving the hotel and going back to her condo.

 

[Horatius]

Ummmm. . . no. That's not how events between friends work. I never said it was her who was drunk which is why I wanted to hear from a witness.

So, your theory is that Remie is just flat out lying about being drunk then? And Whoever it was that allegedly helped her was themselves drunk enough to insist she take a wheelchair ride, for some *********** reason? After she called them for help for apparently no reason at all* after perfectly sober and consensual sex at, what, 3AM?


And you think you understand "how events between friends work"? Give me a break.





*Except, ya know, the anti-Shermer Conspiracy that she was in the midst of, even then. Poor poor man, being set up like that

 

[d4m10n]

I'll let Damion speak for himself. It wouldn't be the most ridiculous claim in this thread.

Much appreciated.

Has Shermer changed his story? I thought he'd only published one account since Smith named herself as the accuser.

An account which conflicts with the plain meaning of his e-mail to Wagg right after the event itself, in which the alleged hookup was just a bunch of "gossip rumors" invented by a couple of sexually frustrated skepbros, and Alison was just a "good kid" rather than someone that he would try to have sex with.

I don't think "no smoke without fire" is a reasonable standard by which to judge someone.

Totally agreed, if you mean what I think you mean by this metaphor.

Do they take out extra liability insurance to cover Shermer's sexual antics?

That depends upon whom you ask but I've no way to verify whether this is just another FtB-initated rumor. Certainly I would be interested in hearing disconfirmation or confirmation on this point from the people who ran TAM in years subsequent to 2008.

 

[Verklagekasper]

yes I think you've cut straight to the real issue here

a proper lady organizer must not do such things

i certainly hope she does not get away with it!

It doesn't look like the real issue ("guilty or not") is going to be solved within the next 500 pages or so, so excuse me if, meanwhile, I try to get some info on the culture of such events. And yes, it puzzles me that a community so concerned with the regulation of attendees' behavior doesn't care if female staff members get drunk as a skunk.

 

[shuttlt]

It doesn't look like the real issue ("guilty or not") is going to be solved within the next 500 pages or so

Ain't that the truth.

 

[colander]

It doesn't look like the real issue ("guilty or not") is going to be solved within the next 500 pages or so, so excuse me if, meanwhile, I try to get some info on the culture of such events. And yes, it puzzles me that a community so concerned with the regulation of attendees' behavior doesn't care if female staff members get drunk as a skunk.

When you refer to "a community so concerned with the regulation of attendees' behavior", who are you talking about and what behavior are you saying that they are concerned with regulating? Also, please explain why you think that these unnamed people should be invested in regulating the drinking of "female staff members", and why this is a discussion that makes sense to have in a thread devoted to discussing allegations of sexual misconduct against female staff members.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

An account which conflicts with the plain meaning of his e-mail to Wagg right after the event itself, in which the alleged hookup was just a bunch of "gossip rumors" invented by a couple of sexually frustrated skepbros, and Alison was just a "good kid" rather than someone that he would try to have sex with.

Ah yes, thanks for this. It's sometimes hard to keep track of who said what when in these things, but yes I've read both statements before (and have just re-read them). I think there's a tiny bit of wiggle-room for Shermer if he wants to claim he was being discreet and gentlemanly in the email, but it's not something I'd give much credence to were he to try. I would certainly consider it to be far more reasonable to believe that either he was lying then or lying now or, even more credibly, that he has told two different lies at two different times.

That depends upon whom you ask but I've no way to verify whether this is just another FtB-initated rumor. Certainly I would be interested in hearing disconfirmation or confirmation on this point from the people who ran TAM in years subsequent to 2008.

Now you mention this like this, I think it's something I've heard said before. I don't think there's anything that raises it above the level of rumour and innuendo, but I didn't think you were just making a funny.

Incidentally, why do you often link to google searches rather than the thing you're actually referencing?

 

[d4m10n]

Incidentally, why do you often link to google searches rather than the thing you're actually referencing?

Mostly just to highlight the particular phrase that I'm trying to point out, but also because oftentimes the original source eventually gets lost and reposted elsewhere.

 

[Horatius]

Ah yes, thanks for this. It's sometimes hard to keep track of who said what when in these things, but yes I've read both statements before (and have just re-read them). I think there's a tiny bit of wiggle-room for Shermer if he wants to claim he was being discreet and gentlemanly in the email, but it's not something I'd give much credence to were he to try. I would certainly consider it to be far more reasonable to believe that either he was lying then or lying now or, even more credibly, that he has told two different lies at two different times.

It does give them some wiggle-room, but for the rest of us, this e-mail points out one more important thing. It's that rumors of his behavior were circulating right after the event in question. Certain folks are placing a lot of weight on how this story didn't come out until just recently, and it would be interesting to see how they weave these next-day rumors into the over all narrative of Shermer being nothing more than the victim of a FTB conspiracy.

 

[colander]

offering support and encouragement to Smith, user "skeptifem" said in a recent Pharyngula post

oh yeah, and just so people know, my husband dated alison before me. She told him shortly after it happened, and she called it rape from the start.

My speculation is that skeptifem may be Jeff Wagg's wife but who knows

 

[Verklagekasper]

When you refer to "a community so concerned with the regulation of attendees' behavior", who are you talking about and what behavior are you saying that they are concerned with regulating? Also, please explain why you think that these unnamed people should be invested in regulating the drinking of "female staff members", and why this is a discussion that makes sense to have in a thread devoted to discussing allegations of sexual misconduct against female staff members.

Who: In case you haven't noticed, conference policies have been a big deal during the last years. Also a TAM Code of Conduct has been formulated. I cannot provide you with a list of all people who fought for policies. Just, as a matter of fact, RemieV was among them.
Why they should care: Because the policies cannot be enforced if the staff members themselves are too drunk to notice what's going on. Besides, senselessly drunk staff members aren't creating the sort of atmosphere that the policies are supposed to ensure.
Why I raise the issue: Because I feel so and I don't need your permission to do so.

 

[Cleon]

offering support and encouragement to Smith, user "skeptifem" said in a recent Pharyngula post

ARGH! FTBullies! SJWers! Wharglbargl!

My speculation is that skeptifem may be Jeff Wagg's wife but who knows

Nah. For one thing, it doesn't sound like her. For another, it points to an ex-natural-childbirth-advocate blog, which isn't Mrs. Wagg's thing.

 

[tyr_13]

Who: In case you haven't noticed, conference policies have been a big deal during the last years. Also a TAM Code of Conduct has been formulated. I cannot provide you with a list of all people who fought for policies. Just, as a matter of fact, RemieV was among them.
Why they should care: Because the policies cannot be enforced if the staff members themselves are too drunk to notice what's going on. Besides, senselessly drunk staff members aren't creating the sort of atmosphere that the policies are supposed to ensure.
Why I raise the issue: Because I feel so and I don't need your permission to do so.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that the party was a TAM event in that it wasn't organized and under the control of the TAM staff and wasn't part of the official event roster, and that it was an informal event going on at the same time. In that case she wasn't a 'staff member' at the party, but a 'guest'.

 

[d4m10n]

For one thing, it doesn't sound like her.

Any relation to the Skeptifem from upthread?

 

[Cleon]

Any relation to the Skeptifem from upthread?

Only skeptifem knows for sure.

 

[Lorentz]

Only skeptifem knows for sure.

Which one of them does?

 

[squealpiggy]

They weren't equated to voyeurism. That's your misreading of the comment.

"Then there must be witnesses, a police report, a medical exam and finally a willingness to go over all the gory details with whatever voyeur wants a piece."

No I'm quite confident that Tsig's post discouraging women from reporting sexual assault to the authorities is equating police reports and medical examinations with voyeurism.