Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

[newyorkguy]

How do you see this case comparing to the ex springbok who shot his daughter dead as she was driving away in his car, thinking her a burglar? He was not charged because he had suffered enough.
But the perceived burglar was no threat at all in that case.

I don't know the case but I think legally speaking that would depend on whether or not the victim of car theft has the legal right to use deadly force.

 

[Samson]

I don't know the case but I think legally speaking that would depend on whether or not the victim of car theft has the legal right to use deadly force.

This is what I have


She referred to the case of former Springbok rugby player,
Rudi Visagie, who shot dead his 19-year-old daughter as she
drove out of their home in the early hours of the morning in
May 2004.

Visagie apparently said he thought she was thief who was
stealing the car.

“The NPA declined to prosecute him on humanitarian
grounds,” said Phelps.

“They even said that had they proceeded to trial, they
would have successfully gotten a culpable homicide
conviction and not one of murder.”

 

[katy_did]

The bedroom door is blocked. She has already "cleared" the path between the bed and toilet door so during this brief time a intruder has climbed over the balcony rail?

Here is a possible alternate chain of events:
They have an argument about her meeting with old boyfriends. Oscars control freak attitudes come to light full bore. She tells him to bug off. Now he's screaming with rage and starts fumbling for his hand howitzer. Her first instinct is to get out of his line of fire. Remember the door leading to the stairway is locked and she may not think she can get through that door before he opens up. Locking herself in the toilet is her only chance hoping Oscar will cool down.
Do I think this is proven? No. Is this sequence of events possible? Yes. And it does fit with the kind of person Oscar is proven to be, Hotheaded, reckless with firearms and seldom thinks about anybody but Oscar.

Her boyfriend's screaming that there's an intruder - she's hardly going to be thinking rationally about the logical possibilities of whether this intruder might've been hiding on the balcony or whether he entered through the bedroom door. Either of which is entirely possible in any case.

Sure, we can come with all manner of scenarios in which they argued and he shot her as a result, but where there's no evidence, there's no evidence. And it seems to me that being hotheaded, reckless with firearms and seldom thinking about anyone but himself fits just as well if not better with him recklessly opening fire at the toilet door because he thought there was an intruder behind it (not to mention with his history of going into "combat mode" at the washing machine and general paranoia about security).

 

[newyorkguy]

“The NPA declined to prosecute him on humanitarian grounds,” said Phelps.

There's your answer and it's because the prosecutors apparently believed former rugby star Rudi Visagie made an honest mistake. In Pistorius' case they obviously don't. Killing a girl friend following a row happens all the time. A father killing a daughter is much more rare. Was there a history of animosity between Visagie and his daughter? Apparently not at all. I read about the Visagie case and what reason would he have had for killing his daughter. There were other important differences as well.

First Visagie's wife was with him when the incident happened. They were awakened before dawn by the sound of a car starting up in their driveway. They were on edge because of a recent violent crime nearby. It was a lucky shot (though I'm not sure 'lucky' is the right word), firing through a window at a moving car is not like firing through a bathroom door. And Visagie had no other recourse other than to take action...or call police as the person he believed to be stealing his daughter's car drove away in it.

Amid heightened fears following their neighbors' killings the week before, he broke a bedroom window and fired at the car, hitting the driver in the neck. CNN link

In some ways the two cases are similar, in some important ways I'd say they're quite different.

 

[MontagK505]

There's your answer and it's because the prosecutors apparently believed former rugby star Rudi Visagie made an honest mistake. In Pistorius' case they obviously don't. Killing a girl friend following a row happens all the time. A father killing a daughter is much more rare. Was there a history of animosity between Visagie and his daughter? Apparently not at all. I read about the Visagie case and what reason would he have had for killing his daughter. There were other important differences as well.

First Visagie's wife was with him when the incident happened. They were awakened before dawn by the sound of a car starting up in their driveway. They were on edge because of a recent violent crime nearby. It was a lucky shot (though I'm not sure 'lucky' is the right word), firing through a window at a moving car is not like firing through a bathroom door. And Visagie had no other recourse other than to take action...or call police as the person he believed to be stealing his daughter's car drove away in it.



In some ways the two cases are similar, in some important ways I'd say they're quite different.

I wonder what the outcome would have been if the driver of the car was his daughters boyfriend who had her permission to use the car?

 

[Skwinty]

More grist to the mill.

One of SA's top criminal defence advocates: Masipa's judgment is 'unholy mess riddled with errors of fact and law. Def grounds for appeal'.
8:48 AM - 18 Sep 2014 @MandyWiener



Was problem with Oscar judgment not perhaps that Judge required state to prove guilt beyond ANY doubt instead of beyond reasonable doubt?
7:37 AM - 18 Sep 2014 @pierredevos

 

[Samson]

More grist to the mill.

One of SA's top criminal defence advocates: Masipa's judgment is 'unholy mess riddled with errors of fact and law. Def grounds for appeal'.
8:48 AM - 18 Sep 2014 @MandyWiener



Was problem with Oscar judgment not perhaps that Judge required state to prove guilt beyond ANY doubt instead of beyond reasonable doubt?
7:37 AM - 18 Sep 2014 @pierredevos

Can this case last longer than Coronation street or the Amanda Knox thread?
It shows promise.

 

[SezMe]

Just for accuracy purposes, I just want to make sure this thread has credibility amongst all of us:

... the cops that sows up the whole thing.

sews

Carry on.

 

[Colin from France]

One of the reasons why it is strange that she locked the toilet door is because the lights were not working in there, a lot of effort to go through in the middle of the night. In these sort of cases i always like to look at what was exceptional at the time, sometimes these can give an indication towards a theory, in this case it was St Valentines day and the mobile phone in the toilet in the dark, that she was partly dressed on a hot night could be excluded from being exceptional. Could there be a link between the St Valentines day and the mobile phone ? Look at it with a jealous mind ....

 

[Colin from France]

It's also consistent with creating a false impression to cover his ass after fully realizing what he has done and consistent with the "how can I switch the blame mindset" that has been demonstrated as part of his character. The gun incident in the restaurant comes to mind.
I don't find the " resolve an argument by risking life in jail" argument onvincing, if he was in a rage he wouldn't be thinking about the consequences.

Instinct says you're right, he killed her in a moment of extreme rage if not jealousy, i give him ten out of ten for his story though.

 

[platonov]

Instinct says you're right, he killed her in a moment of extreme rage if not jealousy, i give him ten out of ten for his story though.

Really ? I thought it was a blick man !
In SA.

He's no Bulgakov.

 

[Samson]

Really ? I thought it was a blick man !
In SA.

He's no Bulgakov.

platonov, why do you choose to throw meaningless grenades into these conversations? It is incredibly tedious.

 

[Davo]

I think the phone being found in the toilet tells us a lot.

If she was calling someone at night whilst in the toilet, there would be some record of phone conversation from the phone provider network.

The more likely alternative is that she fled to the toilet to call for help, but was shot before she had the chance.

 

[Octavo]

Can this case last longer than Coronation street or the Amanda Knox thread?
It shows promise.

platonov, why do you choose to throw meaningless grenades into these conversations? It is incredibly tedious.

You're contradicting yourself

 

[Samson]

You're contradicting yourself

I guess so. What's the informal street poll? Knew it was Reeva vs honestly thought it was intruder? Or is it just time wasters on the internet who discuss it?

 

[Octavo]

I guess so. What's the informal street poll? Knew it was Reeva vs honestly thought it was intruder? Or is it just time wasters on the internet who discuss it?

I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I opted for the last option.

I don't think it's possible to say with any real certainty what he knew that night. I'm more inclined to err on the side of innocent until proven guilty though and think he probably did believe he was shooting at an intruder.

 

[Colin from France]

I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I opted for the last option.

I don't think it's possible to say with any real certainty what he knew that night. I'm more inclined to err on the side of innocent until proven guilty though and think he probably did believe he was shooting at an intruder.

For me, it's big rage in bedroom he reaches for his gun, she runs to hide in toilet.

 

[Octavo]

For me, it's big rage in bedroom he reaches for his gun, she runs to hide in toilet.

Then why didn't she hit the panic button?

 

[Colin from France]

Then why didn't she hit the panic button?

I don't think she would of thought of it straight off, it not being her home.

 

[Octavo]

I don't think she would of thought of it straight off, it not being her home.

LOL! If you live in urban South Africa, panic buttons are a fact of life. I have 3 in my home which all summon armed response in under 5 minutes and I live in a safe neighbourhood. In Gauteng not having a panic button in your home would be sheer folly.

ETA: My point is that she would have known that there were panic buttons in the house and almost certainly knew exactly where they were.