Michael Brown shooting II

[casebro]

Let me sum up the "facts in evidence"-

Brown is dead.

He was shot.

He was not shot multiple times in the back while fleeing.

He was shot face to face in a close encounter.

Period.

All else is hear say and inuendo.

Yet we seem to have two camps here. One, still believes the meme that he was executed while surrendering.

The other beleives the cop had reasonable cause to beleive he was in immenent danger again.

There are media witnesses that support both sides.

end summation. But I wonder of the GJ will see a recording of an actual imminent tussle as Brown approaches Wilson? Weren't phones confiscated?

 

[Kestrel]

Some information about a 2000 police shooting of two unarmed black men in the same area where Brown was shot. The prosecutor handling the Brown case presented the 2000 case to a grand jury which did not result in an indictment.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-murray-shooting-20140825-story.html#page=1

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Or that he even has any.

Yes, he may not have any. I guess to be properly skeptical, we should keep that disclaimer.

However, the police chief will have lots of explaining to do if that's the case.
And quite a few witnesses thing there was a struggle at the car and/or through the window.

At this point, it seems rather likely there was some facial injury.

If it even took place.

Yes, there may not have been any struggle.

There may not be any more evidence than wilsons word on that.

It wasn't that long ago in this thread (probably the previous one, actually) that the idea that Wilson shot at a fleeing Brown was scoffed at.

Now we've downgraded to "Well, he only shot at him twice while he was fleeing".

I wonder how many more times Wilson could have potentially shot at Brown while Brown was running away, and Wilson would still get a pass.

I don't think "getting a pass" is what is going on. It's a clarification of when shots may or may not have been fired, not a judgement on whether shooting at a brown while he was fleeing was legally OK or not.

And we have witnesses specifically saying Wilson said nothing as he shot Brown to death. No commands to freeze or get on the ground. Nothing.

I find that very troubling.

If it turns out to be the case that there were no commands given, I agree that's troubling.

Right now, that seems pretty unrealistic to me. I understand police have it quite drilled into them to yell "freeze" "stop" "on the ground" etc.

So it's puzzling until I hear more from the witnesses and what they heard or didn't hear, and what wilson has to say.

 

[johnny karate]

...to strike another blow. If the facts of the case were simply that Wilson shot Brown in the act of surrendering, he'd be charged already.

If the universal sign for surrender wasn't enough for Wilson to recognize Brown was surrendering, what should Brown have done?

And how much of an obligation does a law enforcement officer have to instruct someone of the very specific actions he expects before shooting that person dead?

 

[Aber]

...to strike another blow. If the facts of the case were simply that Wilson shot Brown in the act of surrendering, he'd be charged already.

Really?

Got lots of other examples of police officers being promptly charged after a shooting incident?

In any case Wilson could simply have backed away and kept out of reach.

 

[johnny karate]

How long are you going to pretend that eye witnesses are reliable..

I'm not saying that is the case here, but the fact remains that eye witness accounts are not reliable..

Your position is unclear, so I would appreciate some clarification, please.

Do you reject multiple independent witness accounts that Brown had his hands up when Wilson shot him dead?

Yes or no.

 

[Aepervius]

How long are you going to pretend that eye witnesses are reliable..

I'm not saying that is the case here, but the fact remains that eye witness accounts are not reliable..

I agree with you a single eye witness account is not reliable.

But once the number start to cumulate, it begins to be irritable to get that sentence served.

 

[Aepervius]

...to strike another blow. If the facts of the case were simply that Wilson shot Brown in the act of surrendering, he'd be charged already.

If he was beyond a few meters away from wilson, I hardly can see how you can pretend hand up means striking a blow.

 

[plague311]

One thing that strikes me as strange about the video is that they say it was filmed immediately afterwards. How could it be immediately afterwards if there were already multiple police cars on scene and one of the police officers was putting up crime scene tape? There was no way that was happening 3 minutes after the shooting happened. Didn't one source say that police didn't even get on scene until around 15ish minutes after the shooting happened? I'm still boggled as to why it takes over a month for video, witnesses, and audio to come forward on a case. Do these people not think it was important? I was also under the impression that the autopsy revealed that his hands weren't up when he was shot due to the trajectory of the bullet impacts. Now that I go back to look for it I can't find anything solid, so I'm assume that fact, like many others, has changed.

Well, here's to hoping in another month we'll have a few more eye witnesses come forward with some new video, audio or some other data that will incriminate Wilson more. This slow trickle crap is obnoxious.

 

[Unabogie]

How long are you going to pretend that eye witnesses are reliable..

I'm not saying that is the case here, but the fact remains that eye witness accounts are not reliable..

At some point, when a large enough group of people see the same thing, it becomes impossible for a rational thinker to insist they are all lying or stupid. You have seven witnesses who all saw Brown attempting to surrender or in the act of falling down when he was shot in the head twice. You have these two workers, who have no connection to anyone, who saw Brown with his hands up as he was killed. You have no witnesses at all who saw Brown charging Wilson or presenting any sort of threat. You have the shell casings on the ground. You have the distance from the SUV that Wilson chased Brown. You have the fact that Brown was shot at from behind while he ran away, which is no longer in dispute. You have the autopsy report.

On the other side of this ledger you have an empty incident report, a phony Facebook post, a ridiculous response from the FPD, and a video of Brown stealing cigars.

Perhaps if we could hear Wilson's side of the story it may change things, but Darren Wilson is a craven coward who left town and won't explain himself. He needs to answer for all of this in court. He needs to be charged with a homicide.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One thing that strikes me as strange about the video is that they say it was filmed immediately afterwards. How could it be immediately afterwards if there were already multiple police cars on scene and one of the police officers was putting up crime scene tape? There was no way that was happening 3 minutes after the shooting happened. Didn't one source say that police didn't even get on scene until around 15ish minutes after the shooting happened? I'm still boggled as to why it takes over a month for video, witnesses, and audio to come forward on a case. Do these people not think it was important? I was also under the impression that the autopsy revealed that his hands weren't up when he was shot due to the trajectory of the bullet impacts. Now that I go back to look for it I can't find anything solid, so I'm assume that fact, like many others, has changed.

Well, here's to hoping in another month we'll have a few more eye witnesses come forward with some new video, audio or some other data that will incriminate Wilson more. This slow trickle crap is obnoxious.

Witnesses said other police were on scene almost before the shooting stopped. The delay you refer to must be in reference to something else: the ambulance or the placing of the blanket over the body (that took more than 10 minutes as recorded on the video).

No doubt Wilson would have called for backup after the struggle and before he got out of the car.

You can tell how soon after the shooting it was by the few number of onlookers that have arrived. Compare it to the other videos that showed lots of people showing up rather quickly.

 

[Cylinder]

Where do you draw the line? You try to surrender, multiple people can see you are trying to surrender but the cop is allowed to kill you anyway and claim he thought you were a threat? At what point does the cop have a duty to recognize a person is surrendering, not attacking? Never?

The line is drawn at the points where a reasonably cautious and prudent person, in the same circumstance as Wilson, would be in fear of death or serious physical injury, feel the threat was immediate and feel the use of force was necessary to prevent death or serious injury; or -- since Wilson was a law enforcement officer presumably attempting a lawful detention -- at the point where a reasonably cautious and prudent person would feel the need to effect Brown's arrest without delay in order to prevent death or serious injury to himself or others and feel the use of force was necessary to effect the arrest.

If Brown surrendered and was compliant, the use of force was most probably unlawful.

If Brown surrendered and was not compliant, but did not give rise to fear of death or great bodily injury, the use of force was probably unlawful.

If Brown surrendered, then started exhibiting aggressive behaviors after have just assaulted and injured a police officer, the use of force will probably be viewed as justified.

There's a reason that Wilson hasn't been charged. Again, I suggest that after/if the actual police statements are released by the court, eyewitness testimony isn't going to be the gold standard for reliability that we see here today.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let me sum up the "facts in evidence"-

Brown is dead.

He was shot.

He was not shot multiple times in the back while fleeing.

He was shot face to face in a close encounter.

The shot "in the face", according to the autopsy, entered above the eyebrow and traveled down, suggesting it entered as Brown's head was bent over.

In addition, "close encounter" is not a known 'fact in evidence'.

Period.

All else is hear say and inuendo.

Yet we seem to have two camps here. One, still believes the meme that he was executed while surrendering.

Your posts are the only ones I recall that use the word, executed. If you are referring to a few people on the Net using this description, you might want to mention you are not referring to anyone in the thread.

The other beleives the cop had reasonable cause to beleive he was in immenent danger again.

There are media witnesses that support both sides.

That's a stretch on both counts. Unless you are referring to, 'shot while trying to surrender', in which case the majority of the witnesses reports do support this scenario and the couple that didn't see his hands up, or saw Brown moving toward Wilson when he was killed also did not say he was threatening or aggressively moving toward Wilson.

The majority of the witnesses support the scenario Brown appeared to be surrendering when the final shots were delivered. Not all the witnesses saw his hands up and there are two (or three) reports he was moving toward Wilson when the final shots were delivered but at least one of those called it "stumbling forward", and the other is a voice on a video saying Brown "kept coming", which has not been clarified what was meant by that other than that the witness was surprised the shots didn't drop Brown sooner.

 

[Cylinder]

Really?

Got lots of other examples of police officers being promptly charged after a shooting incident?

In any case Wilson could simply have backed away and kept out of reach.

By virtue of his law enforcement duty, Wilson has zero duty of retreat or avoidance. Wilson had the power to detain and arrest Brown and the expectation intact that Brown would do nothing but comply.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...to strike another blow. If the facts of the case were simply that Wilson shot Brown in the act of surrendering, he'd be charged already.

Can you support this claim with any examples of a cop that was immediately charged after shooting an unarmed man clearly trying to surrender?

And if you can't would that be because you are saying such circumstances (cop shooting a clearly surrendering man) have never occurred in the history of the police?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

At some point, when a large enough group of people see the same thing, it becomes impossible for a rational thinker to insist they are all lying or stupid. You have seven witnesses who all saw Brown attempting to surrender or in the act of falling down when he was shot in the head twice. You have these two workers, who have no connection to anyone, who saw Brown with his hands up as he was killed. You have no witnesses at all who saw Brown charging Wilson or presenting any sort of threat. You have the shell casings on the ground. You have the distance from the SUV that Wilson chased Brown. You have the fact that Brown was shot at from behind while he ran away, which is no longer in dispute. You have the autopsy report.

On the other side of this ledger you have an empty incident report, a phony Facebook post, a ridiculous response from the FPD, and a video of Brown stealing cigars.

Perhaps if we could hear Wilson's side of the story it may change things, but Darren Wilson is a craven coward who left town and won't explain himself. He needs to answer for all of this in court. He needs to be charged with a homicide.

Yes, they have all that, and he's not been charged.

It could be that there is massive police conspiracy to keep wilson from being charged.

Or, it could be due to other factors we don't know, since we really haven't seen much in the way of solid evidence we know exists - i.e. wilsons statement, witness statements, shell casing locations, autopsy, etc.

I know which option I am choosing, as a rational thinker.

 

[Lerxst]

I'm not working backwards from any conclusion. I'm simply going where the evidence takes me. How many more witnesses do you need to say Brown had his hands up before we can acknowledge that he had his hands up?



If Brown resisted arrest and/or assaulted Wilson, I'm not sure why you don't think he had the option of surrendering. Of course he does.



You assume a lot of facts not in evidence in your scenario, and it's still one in which it's okay to shoot dead an unarmed person with his hands up.

Yes, you are. That is why you won't discuss anything else or claim that events that transpired moments before are unrelated. All that matters to you is that he was surrendering, and then you work from there. Your position has been fairly consistent throughout the entire thread.

Of course he has the option to surrender. He had the option to just get out of the road when asked as well but he chose not to. Once Wilson makes the decision to use lethal force though I don't expect him to just assume that Brown is giving up. To use your term, there are no take-backs here. We're talking about human beings, not light switches that can be turned on and off. I realize that is the expectation that some people have of the police, but that doesn't seem realistic to me.

I don't assume that Wilson was assaulted, I'm pointing out that he claims he was, and I don't discount that automatically just because he shot Brown. As someone else already stated, if it was clear that there was no altercation between these two men before Brown was shot then Wilson would likely have been charged by now.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

At some point, when a large enough group of people see the same thing, it becomes impossible for a rational thinker to insist they are all lying or stupid. You have seven witnesses who all saw Brown attempting to surrender or in the act of falling down when he was shot in the head twice. You have these two workers, who have no connection to anyone, who saw Brown with his hands up as he was killed. You have no witnesses at all who saw Brown charging Wilson or presenting any sort of threat. You have the shell casings on the ground. You have the distance from the SUV that Wilson chased Brown. You have the fact that Brown was shot at from behind while he ran away, which is no longer in dispute. You have the autopsy report.

So, the only choices are lying or stupid?

Was everyone who failed to see the gorilla lying or stupid ?

http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html

On the other side of this ledger you have an empty incident report, a phony Facebook post, a ridiculous response from the FPD, and a video of Brown stealing cigars.

Perhaps if we could hear Wilson's side of the story it may change things, but Darren Wilson is a craven coward who left town and won't explain himself. He needs to answer for all of this in court. He needs to be charged with a homicide.

Do you really think Darren Wilson is going to have much success trying to explain himself, ever?

What would make you happy? For him to just suck it up and plead guilty to murder?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, they have all that, and he's not been charged.

It could be that there is massive police conspiracy to keep wilson from being charged.

Or, it could be due to other factors we don't know, since we really haven't seen much in the way of solid evidence we know exists

I'll take door number three.

It only takes a bias by the prosecutor which the appearance of is well documented by his refusal to recuse himself despite cause.

And the GJ is a normal process even when the prosecutors do feel there is enough evidence of a crime in many cases.

- i.e. wilsons statement, witness statements, shell casing locations, autopsy, etc.

I know which option I am choosing, as a rational thinker.

Clarify for me if you will. Are you saying you haven't seen evidence of Wilson's wrongdoing, or that you believe there is surely some exonerating evidence we haven't seen or he'd have been indicted already?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...Was everyone who failed to see the gorilla lying or stupid ?

http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html...

I do believe that is called a red herring.