Michael Brown shooting II

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Unabogie said:
Revealed today at the hearing to find Michael Brown's juvenile "record", is the fact that no, he was not accused of assault, or murder, or burglary, or robbery, or anything else that would qualify as a class A or class B felony.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_43c9bbbb-356f-5ea6-b9e2-7dde7e3e5c83.html



Connoisseurs of smear jobs will be expecting the inevitable cries of "but, but, but, this is only felonies!!! We don't KNOW that he wasn't accused of other things!!!" ignoring the fact that even if he had been in trouble before, it wouldn't have any relevance to whether or not Wilson had the right to kill him.

On a related note, a Princeton operations manager is running into trouble because of his medical marijuana card and activism.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/princeton-wanrs-medical-marijuana-patient-lose-job



Note that there is no mention here of how his medical marijuana usage has turned him into a homicidal maniac. Strangely, when it comes to Americans who have NOT been shot by white men, the pot usage loses all of its Reefer Madness side effects.
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Boy, I called that one wrong. I would have given 3 to 1 odds he'd had some prior felony arrest.

What bad luck, to pull your first robbery on the day you're shot. It makes me a lot more interested in what we'll see in the toxicology report.
 
Kestrel said:
Article discussing analysis of the audio recording of some of the shots fired in the Michael Brown case:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...c-experts-detail-purported-ferguson-shooting/

The company claims the echos prove that the shooter did not move more than 4 feet while these shots were fired.

Knowing how sound can be reflected, I understand how the pattern of echos after a gunshot can give us information about the location of the shooter. But in this example, there were 10 shots and only 7 echos recorded. With one or fewer echos per shot, a consistent timing between the a shot and its echo only tells us the shooter did not move much relative to what was producing the echos. If the shooter moves parallel to a building that is producing echos, the timing between the shot and the echo will not change.
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I'm not vouching for the audio analysis, and I'm sure in a trial the defense will just counter the science with a paid scientific counter-opinion whether valid or not but...

If the shooter is moving, the echoes might sound the same from the position of the shooter running past a continuous building because relative to the wall nothing changes.

But the recording device was in a fixed position. The shots and the echoes would change relative to the recording device.

What isn't clear is how sensitive the measurements would actually be. Can they distinguish a change of a couple feet or only a change that is more than a couple meters?
 
Fudbucker said:
Boy, I called that one wrong. I would have given 3 to 1 odds he'd had some prior felony arrest.

What bad luck, to pull your first robbery on the day you're shot. It makes me a lot more interested in what we'll see in the toxicology report.
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The juvenile lawyer didn't say he had never been charged with a class "c" felony that was eventually dropped or plead down. It would have been easy enough to state that if it were true. Instead, we got:


"The 18-year-old fatally shot by a suburban St. Louis police officer didn't face any juvenile charges at the time of his death and never was charged with a serious felony such as murder, robbery or burglary, a juvenile court system lawyer said Wednesday...

Cynthia Harcourt, the St. Louis County juvenile office's attorney, offered the most specific public details on whether Brown faced legal trouble before his 18th birthday — a subject of intense speculation in a case that has garnered global attention. The 45-minute hearing before a St. Louis County family court judge didn't reveal whether Brown had ever been charged with lesser offenses as a juvenile."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawsuits-seek-michael-brown-juvenile-records-25224927
 
Unabogie said:
Revealed today at the hearing to find Michael Brown's juvenile "record", is the fact that no, he was not accused of assault, or murder, or burglary, or robbery, or anything else that would qualify as a class A or class B felony.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_43c9bbbb-356f-5ea6-b9e2-7dde7e3e5c83.html

Connoisseurs of smear jobs will be expecting the inevitable cries of "but, but, but, this is only felonies!!! We don't KNOW that he wasn't accused of other things!!!" ignoring the fact that even if he had been in trouble before, it wouldn't have any relevance to whether or not Wilson had the right to kill him.
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That doesn't seem to matter to those who only yesterday were busy circulating "proof" that Brown had second degree murder on his juvenile record. As if somehow Brown could have been found guilty of this offense, but not have a gap in his school record.
 
But he must have some record, or they would let it out. If it was a clean record, why waste the city attorney's time fighting the FOI request? The response wouod have been "Record? What record?"

I'll bet general miscreant, maybe some kid fights. Like pushing and shoving. Or stealing another kid's lunch money. Or teen aged shoplifting. Not felonies, but not make him the Teen Angel either.
 
Unabogie said:
Revealed today at the hearing to find Michael Brown's juvenile "record", is the fact that no, he was not accused of assault, or murder, or burglary, or robbery, or anything else that would qualify as a class A or class B felony.

Connoisseurs of smear jobs will be expecting the inevitable cries of "but, but, but, this is only felonies!!! We don't KNOW that he wasn't accused of other things!!!" ignoring the fact that even if he had been in trouble before, it wouldn't have any relevance to whether or not Wilson had the right to kill him.
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It's technically not even all of the felonies if we're being accurate, not that it really matters. Also, just to play devils advocate, wasn't it Ginger, yourself, and Mumbles stating that even the assault on the store keeper would have been pled down to a misdemeanor? You are right, though, his previous record doesn't really mean that much unless it establishes a clear trend. Obviously in this case it doesn't or at least not at a serious level, which it would have by age 18.

Unabogie said:
On a related note, a Princeton operations manager is running into trouble because of his medical marijuana card and activism.

Note that there is no mention here of how his medical marijuana usage has turned him into a homicidal maniac. Strangely, when it comes to Americans who have NOT been shot by white men, the pot usage loses all of its Reefer Madness side effects.
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As someone who is extremely familiar with marijuana and it's effects. I would personally have to say anyone that thinks pot would cause any form of violence is obviously completely unfamiliar with the drug. It causes a lot of things: Spontaneous naps, munchies, laughter, desire to watch horrible movies, and in the worst cases maybe a spinning head. I have never seen or heard of someone becoming violent from marijuana. Ridiculous.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm not vouching for the audio analysis, and I'm sure in a trial the defense will just counter the science with a paid scientific counter-opinion whether valid or not but...

If the shooter is moving, the echoes might sound the same from the position of the shooter running past a continuous building because relative to the wall nothing changes.

But the recording device was in a fixed position. The shots and the echoes would change relative to the recording device.

What isn't clear is how sensitive the measurements would actually be. Can they distinguish a change of a couple feet or only a change that is more than a couple meters?
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It depends on how accurately one can measure the echo delay. That would be limited by factors such as the compression algorithm used during recording. The accuracy of position information also depends on geometry. Consider the case of a long flat wall, a shooter some distance from the wall and a recorder further away from the wall in the same direction as the shooter. If the shooter runs parallel to the wall, the timing will change slower than if he is running directly toward or away from that wall.
 
casebro said:
But he must have some record, or they would let it out. If it was a clean record, why waste the city attorney's time fighting the FOI request? The response wouod have been "Record? What record?"

I'll bet general miscreant, maybe some kid fights. Like pushing and shoving. Or stealing another kid's lunch money. Or teen aged shoplifting. Not felonies, but not make him the Teen Angel either.
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Here is something from NORML the juvenile attorney didn't take off the table:

"The sale or manufacture of 5 grams or less is a Class C felony which is punishable by up to 7 years imprisonment and a maximum fine of $5,000."

http://norml.org/laws/item/missouri-penalties-2

I personally think these penalties are ridiculous, but that is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. To make things worse, the law states if the quantity is as low as 5 grams or as much as 30 kilograms, it is a class B felony that can get you 5-15 years.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Re-read my post:
1 from the car
10 on the audio

That only leaves 1 shot. Either the volley of 6 was while Brown was fleeing and he turned around during the volley, or, Wilson only shot once at Brown as he fled which is not something in any of the police accounts.
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Here's your post.
Skeptic Ginger said:
They say 12 casings recovered.

That means, one from the car, and 10 on the audio. Either he only shot once at Brown as Brown fled, or the six shots of which at least some entered through the front occurred as Brown turned.

Or, the last 4 shots all hit, the one from the car hit, and the graze on the arm was from one of the 6 shots that occurred as Brown was fleeing and he turned during the 3 second lag in shooting.

In other words either there was only one shot as Brown fled
All six shots were fired as he fled
Or Brown turned during the six shots.
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Or more simply, perhaps there were two shots at the confrontation at the police car. I find it strange the video misses out on two shots, unless the both occur before the recording started.


<snip>


Mumbles said:
Or, possibly just not liking some guy driving up and ordering him around. That seems perfectly human to me.
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Are you saying it's human to disobey an armed police officer?

Mumbles said:
Wouldn't it make sense, given Johnson's story, that he would simply be running out of fear?
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Not really. Have you ever seen the video of when a contingent of Guardia Civil tried to take over the government here, 23 February 1981?
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/30-aniversario-23-f/23-congreso-diputados/1026397/

As you see in the video, when gunfire breaks out, the natural is to duck for cover.


Cylinder said:
It's hard to understand why this isn't clear. There were investigative reports generated by the investigation of Brown's strong arm robbery. Subsequently, Brown was shot. The robbery investigation became inactive by virtue of law enforcement making the decision not to prosecute a dead man. Once the investigation became inactive, the reports generated by that investigation became public records.

An investigation was conducted into the circumstances of Brown's shooting. That investigation is not inactive by virute of not meeting one of the statutory criteria. Those investigative reports are not yet public records.

There is no criterion for investigative reports to be closed by virtue of relevance to another investigation. It most certainly can be both a public record and relevant to another investigation. By this logic, nothing abut this case should ever become public record by virtue of potential relevance to other investigations into police wrongdoing. That interpretation would close all otherwise public records that could expose government wrongdoing.
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Thanks for that information, Cylinder.


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited for Rule 11. Moderated thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Axiom_Blade said:
pakeha said:
Can you draw a gun with one hand?
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Well, yeah. Why wouldn't you?

He didn't even need to draw it; it could've already been out. This is all just speculation, anyway.
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I have experience with the use of firearms.
I asked because I wanted to know how feasible is the notion Wilson could draw his gun while seated behind the wheel of a car and grabbing a man of 6'4'' weighing 290 lb. by the shirt through a car window.
 
Justice Department to investigate Ferguson Police Department

The Department of Justice will launch a civil rights investigation into the Ferguson (Mo.) Police Department after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen by one of its white officers.

A government official briefed on the planned investigation told Fox News that the Justice Department's civil rights division would be in charge of the probe. The inquiry is referred to as a "pattern and practice" investigation and will focus on the department's policies, not possible individual wrongdoing.

The Justice Department is conducting a separate, narrower investigation into the August 9 shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson. A grand jury is also considering whether to indict Wilson for the shooting, which set off about two weeks of unrest in the streets of Ferguson and became a flashpoint in the national discussion of police treatment of minorities across the country. Two weeks ago, Attorney General Eric Holder visited the St. Louis suburb, where he met with investigators and Brown's parents and shared personal experiences of having himself been mistreated by the police.
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My guess is the whole Wilson investigation thing is resistant to the desired result.

We have always been at war with Eastasia/
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's not my contention Brown turned during the pause. Wilson paused when Brown turned.
snip
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If the last four shots were all hits, one hit in the car, and the graze was from behind, that would work. I would guess the clothing will shed some light on it. I can't imagine how there could not be any residue if he was hit in the car.

If he wasn't hit from behind or in the car, MB must have turned around prior to the pause before the last four shots. We will have more info only when the rest of the autopsies results are release and the location of all the shell casings are reported.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
......
But the recording device was in a fixed position. The shots and the echoes would change relative to the recording device.
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How do you know the recording device didn't move during the recording?

What isn't clear is how sensitive the measurements would actually be. Can they distinguish a change of a couple feet or only a change that is more than a couple meters?
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The measuring devices have no problem measuring the full frequency range and sound level of the recording.

Any type of accurate distance/movement analysis would require another recording with the same device, in the same location, with the sounds being generated in the same general area as the shooting scene...

There is still no way to distinguish between movement of the sound source and interference with or movement of the microphone.

A relatively small displacement of the microphone, would appear as a larger displacement of the sound source, increasing with the distance between the two - i.e. - moving the microphone 6 inches laterally, could have the same effect as a 10 foot movement of the sound source..

Just to be clear, when I say 'interference' , I do not mean intentional interference.

It could be something as benign as moving in such a way that some part of the body interferes with the incoming sound waves.

Do we have information regarding the recording device? Headset microphone - microphone on a desk - the microphone built into a smart phone?
 
Are we sure that the microphone the individual was using wasn't moving? Glide is a cell phone app, not a computer app. Being as such all the software does is creates a short video that is sent to another person with the app, or uploaded to a website where it can be viewed. The person that was recording could have easily been walking around his apartment/house, in and out of rooms or something to the like.
 
Mumbles said:
No. And there's really no reason to hold him in any sort of custody. The only know crime he's connected with is Brown's robbery, and he was recorded giving the stolen goods he was handed back.
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<speculation>
If he has altered his story in a way that makes wilson look good and brown look bad, that could be a reason for him to want to be in protective custody.
</speculation>

As for crimes, he admits in an interview to having cigarillos in his hand when wilson drove up. There are so many laws ... the Police can find something to charge you with if they try. It may not stick, but they can certainly charge.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's not my contention Brown turned during the pause. Wilson paused when Brown turned.

Interviews with Johnson's lawyers do not give that impression.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...9b47ba-2ee2-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html
Johnson, who hid behind a nearby car during the Aug. 9 shooting, is in federal protective custody out of fear for his life, his attorneys said.
Skeptic Ginger said:
I understand the image doesn't look like a casing. But it also doesn't look like a heavy bracelet or watch.
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So what is it ? Do you have a theory or guess ? It's important enough to have a marker...

Skeptic Ginger said:
All of the witnesses put only Brown at the SUV window.
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Well, not all...
Dorian Johnson puts himself at the window - He claims he was hit by the door opening !
http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
But, we stepped back just in time. And now, he is at an angle where we are so close to his door and him, that when he tries to thrust the door open aggressively, it doesnt come an inch out before it strikes both of us. He is a larger man than me, so it hit (Mike) more than it hit me, but we both felt it and instantly closed back on the officer....
I am standing not feet away, not even inches away, an inch away from everything that is happening while it s happening
So, there's that....

Skeptic Ginger said:
The feds asked Ferguson PD not to release it.

This isn't about right or wrong, it's about reasons why the PD would release it when they'd been asked not to. The FOIA request was a convenient excuse but it certainly wasn't mandatory the video be released at that time.
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I can see there was probably some wiggle room to delay it if they (FPD) really wanted to. But why should they want to ?
 
Assume a witness saw Wilson firing at Brown while Brown was running away, and saw Brown react to being hit. Would that witness be a liar for describing this as Brown being hit in the back, or simply inaccurate because Brown was actually hit in the arm?
 
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