Michael Brown shooting II

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is your problem. Or one of them. You're allowing initial media reports to lay the foundation of your narrative, and new evidence merely fits within that pre-determined structure.

"Fitting the evidence to the eye witness accounts" was the IF in my statement. It wasn't a statement that the eye witness accounts were infallible.

I put all the evidence together in that scenario. It would seem the people who think Brown was a black thug just hand wave all the witnesses away.

This is so ridiculously biased. Wilson is "boiling" from an assault that his critics have been downplaying, but Brown -- a stupid and impulsive robber -- is not upset about getting caught and shot? That's not possible?

Brown was not shooting a gun at someone. He was getting shot at.

Those are not equivalent starting points.

So it's not possible that Brown was making a move? It's not possible that Wilson made an honest mistake? No, Wilson negligently mistook a peaceful surrender for an attack.

Negligence does not require dishonesty. If you make an honest mistake in a situation you are responsible not to and someone dies, it is considered negligence.

From the Free Dictionary:

3. Law Failure to exercise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances, resulting in an unintended injury to another party.

Honest mistakes can still be negligent mistakes.

It was not possible for Brown to make a move like that given the timing of the shots on the audio and the trajectory of the kill shot are against the Brown was coming at Wilson scenario.

It's also interesting how Wilson's rage completely overtakes his training. He gets the suspect to turn around, but he doesn't say "on the ground." The gainfully employed man with no criminal record decides to commit homicide. The jobless robber facing an arrest record does everything to comply, even dies falling forward.

Loss of control due to rage happens to cops all the time. Are you claiming it never does?

But Brown's charge is independently confirmed by someone on the street who is overheard in the youtube video mentioned half a dozen times (importantly, before the narrative took hold in the public consciousness). But none of this gives you pause. Wilson's guilty.

"Kept coming toward him." ≠ "charging at him".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Would it be normal procedure, to publish details of an on-going investigation?

You can't have it both ways. Either the store robbery was not relevant or the details of an ongoing investigation were selectively released.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Where is your evidence that any shots [could have] hit him from behind?
...

ftfy
The autopsy.

Where's your evidence no shots could have hit him from behind?


And how long are people going to continue this blind eye game?

 

[Giz]

ftfy
The autopsy.

Where's your evidence no shots could have hit him from behind?


And how long are people going to continue this blind eye game?

Ah, so now you agree that it is just a possibility rather than what actually happened. Good, we may yet progress to skepticism 201.

 

[casebro]

If they had something better to leak than Mary Jane they would have leaked that instead.

Lack of leaked evidence is not evidence of a lack.

 

[a_unique_person]

This is your problem. Or one of them. You're allowing initial media reports to lay the foundation of your narrative, and new evidence merely fits within that pre-determined structure.



This is so ridiculously biased. Wilson is "boiling" from an assault that his critics have been downplaying, but Brown -- a stupid and impulsive robber -- is not upset about getting caught and shot? That's not possible?



So it's not possible that Brown was making a move? It's not possible that Wilson made an honest mistake? No, Wilson negligently mistook a peaceful surrender for an attack.

It's also interesting how Wilson's rage completely overtakes his training. He gets the suspect to turn around, but he doesn't say "on the ground." The gainfully employed man with no criminal record decides to commit homicide. The jobless robber facing an arrest record does everything to comply, even dies falling forward.



But Brown's charge is independently confirmed by someone on the street who is overheard in the youtube video mentioned half a dozen times (importantly, before the narrative took hold in the public consciousness). But none of this gives you pause. Wilson's guilty.

If every one who was stupid and impulsive was shot there would be bodies all over the place.

 

[Unabogie]

Ah, so now you agree that it is just a possibility rather than what actually happened. Good, we may yet progress to skepticism 201.

This True Skepticism of yours seems very hit and miss. For instance, casebro is making outlandish statements about meth, PCP, and cocaine. Your vast expertise in superior skepticism is needed there. Looking forward to what you write.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I wasn't clear enough. There are three marker cones by the curb in close proximity to Brown's body. They are believed to be the shell casings from Wilson's last volley.

OK, sorry for not following. And sorry for being dense, but I am not understanding how that changes anything ?

The last few (4?) shots were purportedly fired from just a few feet away.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You're still ignoring the point. It's unbelievable.

You claimed there was evidence that no shots hit Brown from behind.

What is the evidence no shots hit Brown from behind?

I never claimed,as a fact, he wasn't shot from behind.

I claimed it wasn't necessary he was shot from behind.

I also claimed I didn't believe he was shot from behind, and already explained why.

Instead of telling me what you think I said, please just use the quote function.

And when I ask you for evidence, instead of just hand-waving it away with vague things like "witnesses" try providing some factual details. It will make the conversation more productive.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So-called? Seriously?

"I am a member of AES, ACFEI and IAI. I am a Registered Investigator (RI) and Certified Forensic Consultant (CFC), as well as a member of the American Board of Recorded Evidence with the American College of Forensic Examiners International.

I help courts and law enforcement agencies understand the science and technology of audio and video forensics. Voice identification is one of my most sought after services at Primeau Forensics followed by audio and video authentication, clarification/enhancement."

http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/meet-the-experts/meet-ed-primeau/

And as far as I can tell, I'm the only one who has bothered to support my position that the recording MAY be a fake (which is all I've claimed).

I get it though. He doesn't agree with you so he's a "so-called" expert. The New York Times is the word of God when it comes to Wilson shooting Brown as he's running away, but not when the New York Times reports that all the shots hit Brown in the front of his body. Eyewitnesses who are quoted as saying Brown was "shot in the back" really mean he was shot from behind. Wilson has a clean record, but only because the Ferguson PD are covering everything up.

Some of you clearly are just believing what you want to believe and aren't looking at this skeptically at all. Whatever. I'll pop back in when we see how bad Wilson got hurt, the results of the police investigation, and what comes out when Brown's juvenile record is revealed.

It won't matter though. Any evidence that doesn't fit the narrative that Wilson murdered Brown will be hand-waved away.

This guy was a player in the thread-whose-name-shall-not-be-mentioned.

He is a charlatan, and I think it was demonstrated in that thread.

So, personally, I don't care whose 'side' he agrees with, I am not giving his opinion credence.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You can't have it both ways. Either the store robbery was not relevant or the details of an ongoing investigation were selectively released.

That's a false dichotomy.

 

[sgtbaker]

This guy was a player in the thread-whose-name-shall-not-be-mentioned.

He is a charlatan, and I think it was demonstrated in that thread.

So, personally, I don't care whose 'side' he agrees with, I am not giving his opinion credence.

That's not the "Mind's Eye" guy is it?

 

[casebro]

You can't have it both ways. Either the store robbery was not relevant or the details of an ongoing investigation were selectively released.

The store robbery investigation was closed when the suspect turned up dead. So no problem with publicizing the tape. Which was done as a FOIA request.

Try to keep up.

 

[BenBurch]

Been lurking this thread for a while now, and I don't intend to get much involved now in it since there's so little information available at this time.

However, there is one thing I'd like to say about the picture that some here say shows brass near Wilson's SUV. It just doesn't look like shell casings to me. It looks segmented, the shape is wrong. Granted it's a fuzzy pic but it doesn't look like shell casings to me. And I shoot a lot of .40 and reload it, I know what it looks like!

Also, some of the most popular ammunition used by police uses nickel plated brass, it is silver in color not brass color. This would include Hornady Critical Duty, Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra Shok, and Winchester Ranger T. Those 4 probably account for the ammo in at least 80% of duty guns.

Also, you'll need the actual gun used loaded with the same ammunition to know where the casings tend to end up. It's common to replace the factory recoil springs in a pistol to match the ammunition you commonly shoot, this will affect how far and the angle casings are ejected. The factory spring is 16lbs, but replacements are available from 13-21lbs. Same with different brands of ammunition in the same gun.

Back to lurk mode.

Correct on all that.

 

[BenBurch]

If they had something better to leak than Mary Jane they would have leaked that instead.

Without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ah, so now you agree ...

Please by all means quote where I ever said anything different.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Lack of leaked evidence is not evidence of a lack.

The way it works is this, evidence of selectively chosen evidence is suspicious.

 

[a_unique_person]

The store robbery investigation was closed when the suspect turned up dead. So no problem with publicizing the tape. Which was done as a FOIA request.

Try to keep up.

Which just happens to relate to a controversial shooting not long after.

 

[pakeha]

It's likely dependent upon the state in question. In Florida, almost everything comes out because of "sunshine" laws. In this case, however, the police leaked the tox report and the video of the "robbery". Since apparently there was nothing preventing the release ot more relevant details, such as the number of bullets fired, the location of the shells, and the number of times Brown was shot. Not of those facts are inflammatory or inculpate the shooter. They're just facts. Why can't the public find them out?

The store robbery investigation was closed when the suspect turned up dead. So no problem with publicizing the tape. Which was done as a FOIA request.

Try to keep up.

But the FPD is not handling the case, the SLCPD is. Perhaps whoever is submitting requests ought to try the other agency.

And I don't bel;eive FOI requsts are valid with an ongoing investigation any how.

Ninja'd.

[ . . . ]On the other hand, we also know that even an object five feet away can receive GPR.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Brown's palm only needed to be a foot or more away from the gun to have no powder or stippling according to Baden.[ . . . ]

But that's not relevant. I mentioned this before. It only matters what you can rule out by not having found powder or stippling. The entry wound had to be at least a foot away or more (probably more like at least 2 feet away).

If they found residue on Brown's hand, then you could say his hand had to be less than 5 feet away or whatever the maximum distance you could still find powder or stippling.

According to my source, Baden's opinion isn't written in stone, so yes, it is relevant.

If they had something better to leak than Mary Jane they would have leaked that instead.

Wouldn't that depend on who dileaked that info and for what purpose that detail was leaked?

You can't have it both ways. Either the store robbery was not relevant or the details of an ongoing investigation were selectively released.

That's a false dichotomy.

Indeed.

4)Doubling over in pain. I think this is most likely. The first couple of shots of the second volley hit him and he immediately doubles over in pain. His head passes into the line of fire and the next two shots hit him in the head.

Steve S

My thought as well.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...ETA: oh yea, they actually allowed the officers to apply for their jobs back, so saying they hired an entirely new force is also wrong.

Wonder why Wilson didn't bother reapplying?