'What about building 7'?

[JSanderO]

He's been saying this for years as far as I remember. His explanation is plausible. NIST dismissed it bases on the lack of conditions needed to fail these components. It shouldn't dissuade him. NIST considers their scenario to be the most probable.

Did you miss where NIST said this? You got a better one with the same detail?

Indeed what I suggest to explain the initiation of the collapse of 7wtc is not supported by data (evidence) that is available of even exists. My *theory* is based on the building movements leading up to and during the collapse and the nature of the transfer structures below floor 7. If the connections of a truss panel failed it would fail the entire truss and the collapse would progressive laterally and leave the tower above with no support. I maintain that the data that NIST used for their *theory* was largely *assumed* and not gathered from on site transducers. So it was hardly supported by a mountain of *data* evidence. But if column 79 buckled and multiple floors above it and around it came down they probably could dislodge TT1 and cause the failure to rapidly progress westward and lead to *global* collapse.

TT1 and TT2 were rather well hidden and well ventilated and so it hard to know whether or not there was fire there. I'll leave it at that.

 

[JayUtah]

So what is used to demolish concrete towers.

Ordinary dynamite.

 

[000063]

It's nonsense but if you leased a floor then you turn off the smoke detectors, open some windows and cut a little bit at a time. Absurd yes, impossible no.

It's so close to impossible as to be impractical for these masterminds. Unless they're stupid enough to try such a risky gambit, among others, in which case they're probably also not smart enough to pull it off.

 

[DGM]

Indeed what I suggest to explain the initiation of the collapse of 7wtc is not supported by data (evidence) that is available of even exists. My *theory* is based on the building movements leading up to and during the collapse and the nature of the transfer structures below floor 7. If the connections of a truss panel failed it would fail the entire truss and the collapse would progressive laterally and leave the tower above with no support. I maintain that the data that NIST used for their *theory* was largely *assumed* and not gathered from on site transducers. So it was hardly supported by a mountain of *data* evidence. But if column 79 buckled and multiple floors above it and around it came down they probably could dislodge TT1 and cause the failure to rapidly progress westward and lead to *global* collapse.

.

No argument here. Both scenarios would likely look identical because the failure was low in the building, the top 2/3 had no choice where it was going.

If there was video showing the bottom third we would likely not be having this conversation.

I disagree that the choice of site was foolish (you still haven't supported the cost claim). I also disagree that there would be sufficient fuel in the area you suggest for failure. Bottom line, we can debate that because we would not be debating fantasy. Until then, I'm OK with agreeing to disagree.

 

[Miragememories]

I am willing to believe there is some truth to JSanderO's scenario about the lower floor trusses failing, but not his vague explanation as to why.

His current belief precludes any possibility of controlled demolition setting things in motion.

Barry Jennings (Emergency Coordinator) and Michael Hess were clearly not expected to be at the 23rd floor Office of Emergency Management (OEM), as it was totally evacuated when they arrived. They encountered no one.

Barry Jennings claims that the 6th floor stairwell was taken out by a big explosion during his attempted evacuation from WTC7.

It was later shown that both of the WTC7 stairwells were impassable to the 8th floor where Barry had retreated.

Looking at the above floor plan, it is extremely difficult to envision how anything other than an explosion could have destroyed those stairwells so low and deep inside WTC7.

Even if you choose to disbelieve Mr. Jenning's account, there is no evidence that suggests debris from WTC1 could have penetrated WTC7 and destroyed both of those stairwells.

I pointed this out to JSanderO in an earlier post but he chose to ignore it.

Additionally, while Barry Jennings was waiting to be rescued from the 8th floor, he stated that he kept hearing repeated explosions.

What he heard could have been destructive preparation for the events that followed later in the day.

 

[DGM]

What he heard could have been destructive preparation for the events that followed later in the day

Or the events that were seen and reported taking place outside at that time..............

His time line is obviously wrong. (but you know that).

 

[Grizzly Bear]

All I am saying is that you can take the NIST collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 and get the exact same failure mechanism with a CD hypothesis. It is of course quite absurd. As engineers we should not be afraid of this. It has been discussed in structural engineering circles for many years. So what...?

It is not possible to come up with a CD hypothesis for WTC 1& 2

This is one of those instances where I say that you could think of a scenario where a CD reproduces the visuals of the observed collpse but there wouldnt be much point to it. The truther description of what makes the towers a CD is essentially fantasy, whereas speculating a hypothetical for a CD scenario that makes sense would require thinking in a way that the truth movenent simply doesnt follow. I do not think you would be able to balance out the absolutes there... not with the CD scenario thats pushed by truthers.

Its also not that valuable of a discussion except as a brief side note IMHO. No offense intended, I just find hypotheticals like that to be only explored for the fun of ir... not as a discussion of reality

 

[000063]

Looking at the above floor plan, it is extremely difficult to envision how anything other than an explosion could have destroyed those stairwells so low and deep inside WTC7.

So?

Additionally, while Barry Jennings was waiting to be rescued from the 8th floor, he stated that he kept hearing repeated explosions.

What he heard could have been destructive preparation for the events that followed later in the day.[/color]

Except for the fact that if they had been even remotely close to the power of demo charges, he would be paste.

For that matter, how did the bad guys know for a fact that the debris impact and fires wouldn't disrupt the explosives? There are literally millions of ways for it to go wrong, especially since the damage would be impossible to predict because it would depend on shedloads of random factors.

 

[MileHighMadness]

MM...who cares!

No evidence of explosives at any of the WTC sites...therefore, no Controlled Demolition.

It may take you another decade, or so to figure that, but you will figure that out...hopefully.

 

[DGM]

MM...who cares!

No evidence of explosives at any of the WTC sites...therefore, no Controlled Demolition.

It may take you another decade, or so to figure that, but you will figure that out...hopefully.

Don't forget the other question "truthers" hate. "Why this building"?

They say no one knew about it so adding to the "shock and awe", doesn't work. To destroy some documents? Spilling them on the street is just stupid? Profit, we all know that didn't work.

 

[JSanderO]

No argument here. Both scenarios would likely look identical because the failure was low in the building, the top 2/3 had no choice where it was going.

If there was video showing the bottom third we would likely not be having this conversation.

I disagree that the choice of site was foolish (you still haven't supported the cost claim). I also disagree that there would be sufficient fuel in the area you suggest for failure. Bottom line, we can debate that because we would not be debating fantasy. Until then, I'm OK with agreeing to disagree.

I can't argue *sufficient* fuel, but there were diesel tanks there and it was pressurized system which perhaps could be the source... or transformer cooling oil???? I don't suspect it was office contents... but something found within the mech floors. But I don't know... of course.

 

[TJM]

<irrelevance snipped>

Barry Jennings claims that the 6th floor stairwell was taken out by a big explosion during his attempted evacuation from WTC7.

His having lived to tell that tale pretty much debunks him, and you know why.

It was later shown that both of the WTC7 stairwells were impassable to the 8th floor where Barry had retreated.

Now they're impassable to 8? How did Jennings & Hess make it down to 6 then? Again, you know why.

Looking at the above floor plan, it is extremely difficult to envision how anything other than an explosion could have destroyed those stairwells so low and deep inside WTC7.

The stairs transition out to the perimeter at the fifth floor, where their exits likely became impassable from the street level due to heavy debris from the towers. Remember, according to Mr. Jennings, he and Mr. Hess were evacuated from 8 and taken out the building from the lobby. WTC 7's lobby was above street level.

So the question that needs to be answered here is: How did Jennings and Hess get down to the lobby? If the FDNY brought them down via the stairs to the lobby, then the stairs were neither destroyed nor impassible to the 8th floor, thus discrediting Jennings. And you.

If the building did have emergency power and elevators were in fireman's service, then FDNY would've rescued Jennings & Hess and brought them to the lobby in that manner, though that debunks Jennings (and you) too.

Which is it?

 

[000063]

Wait, would the FDNY use elevators in this sort of situation?

 

[Richard the G]

This is one of those instances where I say that you could think of a scenario where a CD reproduces the visuals of the observed collpse but there wouldnt be much point to it. The truther description of what makes the towers a CD is essentially fantasy, whereas speculating a hypothetical for a CD scenario that makes sense would require thinking in a way that the truth movenent simply doesnt follow. I do not think you would be able to balance out the absolutes there... not with the CD scenario thats pushed by truthers.

Its also not that valuable of a discussion except as a brief side note IMHO. No offense intended, I just find hypotheticals like that to be only explored for the fun of ir... not as a discussion of reality

Yes I agree. However I don't think it is possible to come up with a hypothetical failure mechanism for WTC 1 & 2, no matter how absurd, because there is too much visual evidence of the failure mechanism. That's why truthers love to focus on WTC 7.

 

[TJM]

Wait, would the FDNY use elevators in this sort of situation?

Don't know. The alternative is coming down the stairs.

Any other escape route would involve gravity and an abrupt stop.

 

[tsig]

It's nonsense but if you leased a floor then you turn off the smoke detectors, open some windows and cut a little bit at a time. Absurd yes, impossible no.

You cannot open the windows in modern hi rises.

 

[Miragememories]

Barry Jennings (Emergency Coordinator) and Michael Hess were clearly not expected to be at the 23rd floor Office of Emergency Management (OEM), as it was totally evacuated when they arrived. They encountered no one.

Barry Jennings claims that the 6th floor stairwell was taken out by a big explosion during his attempted evacuation from WTC7.

His having lived to tell that tale pretty much debunks him, and you know why.

Why?

Because he was fortunate enough that his arrival time was such that he was sufficiently shielded from the explosion to survive?

"When we reached the 8th..uh, the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.

There was an explosion. And the landing 'gave way'."

There is no denying the fact that the stairway access was sufficiently destroyed to prevent his exit.

It was later shown that both of the WTC7 stairwells were impassable to the 8th floor where Barry had retreated.

Now they're impassable to 8?

How did Jennings & Hess make it down to 6 then?

Again, you know why.

"When I made it to the 6th floor and there was an explosion.

The explosion was beneath me.

Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out.

So when the explosion happened, it blew us back.

I'm thinking I'm standing on a landing..I'm actually holding on to a pole above us."

I never said that Barry Jennings reached the 6th floor using both stairwells.

In the original on the street News interview, one of Barry's rescuers said that the backside of BOTH WTC7 stairwells had been blown out making them impassable.

The man did not identify where each stairwell became impassable but was clear that at that time they could not reach the 8th floor.

Looking at the floor plan for the 8th floor, it is extremely difficult to envision how anything other than an explosion could have destroyed those stairwells so low and deep inside WTC7.

Even if you choose to disbelieve Mr. Jenning's account, there is no evidence that suggests debris from WTC1 could have penetrated WTC7 and destroyed both of those stairwells.

I pointed this out to JSanderO in an earlier post but he chose to ignore it.

Additionally, while Barry Jennings was waiting to be rescued from the 8th floor, he stated that he kept hearing repeated explosions.

What he heard could have been destructive preparation for the events that followed later in the day.

[gimg]http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff387/AJM8125/lolmm2.jpg[/gimg]

The stairs transition out to the perimeter at the fifth floor, where their exits likely became impassable from the street level due to heavy debris from the towers.

Remember, according to Mr. Jennings, he and Mr. Hess were evacuated from 8 and taken out the building from the lobby. WTC 7's lobby was above street level.

So the question that needs to be answered here is: How did Jennings and Hess get down to the lobby?

If the FDNY brought them down via the stairs to the lobby, then the stairs were neither destroyed nor impassible to the 8th floor, thus discrediting Jennings. And you.

If the building did have emergency power and elevators were in fireman's service, then FDNY would've rescued Jennings & Hess and brought them to the lobby in that manner, though that debunks Jennings (and you) too.

Which is it?

Well, the 5th floor schematic you provided does not provide the details of 6th floor where they encountered the destroyed stairwell..

Secondly, could you please source the document from which you obtained the Figure 3-1 floor 5 schematic.

From NISTNCSTAR1-8, "Firefighters on the ground saw them and went up the stairs. In addition, a security officer for one of the businesses in the building was also was trapped on the 7th floor by the smoke in the stairway. As the firefighters went up, they vented the stairway and cleared some of the smoke. They first met the security officer on the 7th floor and firefighters escorted him down the stairs. Other firefighters from the group continued up the stairs, shined their flashlight through the staircase smoke and called out. The two trapped men on the 8th floor saw the flashlight beam and heard the firefighters calling and went down the stairway. The firefighters took the men outside and directed them away from the building."​

The NIST story above makes it appear that at one stairwell, there was no blockage other than smoke.

This is in direct conflict with the live interview with one of Mr. Jenning's rescuers;

"It was pandemonium.

It ..something out of a Bruce Willis DIE HARD movie.

um..he was there and he was crying and there was another gentleman crying for help!

We couldn't get to them.

We tried to get through the ..uh.?

We went through the building. We were lost.

Both staircases. The backside was completely blown away.

There was no way to access.

We couldn't get to 'em."

I have not found any details regarding the actual means by which Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were rescued.

There is absolutely no credible reason to doubt both Mr. Jenning's and Mr. Hess's accounts about the stairwell being inaccessible.

Their personal stories make it obvious that they had no wish to remain in WTC7 if they could escape.

Since it seems hardly likely that any elevators were made operational, the most likely process involved the rescuers clearing the obstruction from the other stairwell or using a ladder.

 

[DGM]

Well, the 5th floor schematic you provided does not provide the details of 6th floor where they encountered the destroyed stairwell..

That's not what he said:

"When I made it to the 6th floor and there was an explosion.

The explosion was beneath me.

 

[JayUtah]

You cannot open the windows in modern hi rises.

Nor can you stop the smoke and smells from cutting structural steel from wafting annoyingly about the building, to other floors, down to the lobby, etc.

In other words, so farfetchedly absurd that I can't imagine why we're still considering it.

 

[beachnut]

... Barry Jennings claims that the 6th floor stairwell was taken out by a big explosion during his attempted evacuation from WTC7. ...

Then Barry Jennings was blown up by the explosion, you can't be that close and remain alive. You debunk explosives because Barry was alive after a blast that took out the stairs. Silent explosives with no Boom. Where do you get these fantasy explosives in your fantasy inside job? How do your failed WTC 7 claims fit with Flight 77 and Flight 93? How do you tie all this BS to one big plot?

You don't understand explosives if Barry was in the stairs, and they were blown up. No Combat experience?