Michael Brown Shooting

[pakeha]

...
Are you quite certain of your assertion?
These people seem to think otherwise.

http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distancegsr.htm

The issue is not how far is it possible to find powder in some cases. The question is what is the minimal distance possible if none is found?

In the autopsy press conference Baden said the shots could have been as few as a couple feet to many feet away. [ . . . ]

The link I provided would give you some idea of that, actually.
Now, about your assertion Brown had no criminal record.
I asked if juvenile records were sealed and I haven't seen a reply to that yet. I may have missed your answer, of course.
How do you know Brown had no record?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I don't think the sound recording really sheds that much light on events, because both Brown and Wilson could have been doing just about anything during that time.

One thing it does do is confirm what some of us had said all along, which is that (other than the pause between volleys) the shots are very tightly spaced.

Early on a lot of people here and elsewhere were talking like Wilson was having time to reassess Brown's threat level between each shot, and some of us said no... officers are taught to basically unload in very rapid succession once someone has been deemed a threat which rises to that level.

The only time in that audio reassessment can have taken place is in that gap. The audio leaves us where we've always been: asking whether Brown's actions before shot #1 justified shot #1, and whether his actions before volley #1 and between that and volley #2 justified them.

Wilson gave Brown that pause, what did Brown do with it? We still don't know with any certainty.

And there's nothing hard to believe about Brown only pitching forward in the very final moment, exposing his head to shots which were coming regardless. Falling forward happens very fast.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of course it doesn't, if it doesn't fall in line with your position...

No, if it doesn't fit the physical evidence.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

If Mike's head diagrams are accurate, you can't get the trajectories unless Wilson is shooting from a higher level than Brown's head is.

Which is not inconsistent with Brown falling forward ( for whatever reason ), and still being several feet from the ground when a shot hit the top of his head..

It would be difficult to speculate how high from the ground Wilson was holding his gun..

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I suspect that three seconds is enough time to go from hands up, do an about face and go forward a step while saying "Watchya gonna do, shoot me? "

Football players go 100 yards in ten seconds, IIRC,

And the key point gets missed again.

Two shots to the top of a bent over head. That's the thing you need to match up with the recording of the two volleys of shots.

 

[davefoc]

I understand what point blank means.

...

I think this has already been covered but it is not public knowledge as to whether there was gunshot residue on the car or the clothes or where the shell casing was recovered from the presumed shot inside the car. And even if we knew that we wouldn't know a lot more about who was at fault here.

The evidence that he was going for the gun is the fact that he needs to be going for the gun in order to exonerate Wilson and since we know that he is innocent then Brown had to be going for the gun.


Once you determine your conclusion then evidence is easy.

Nonsense sarcasm in my view. Very few people have expressed anything resembling certainty in this thread. That numerous relevant facts have not been made public has been widely acknowledged. I think it's unlikely that Brown didn't attack Wilson in some way, but maybe he was responding to harassment by Wilson or maybe he was responding to Wilson's anger at having the door shoved back at him, perhaps by accident. It is certainly conceivable a 300 pound man could almost incidentally shove the car door away from himself in such a way as to make it seem to Wilson that the guy had assaulted him.

I don't think there's evidence of an "execution" either. But I also don't believe that Brown turned, taunted Wilson, and then charged him. I don't think that could happen in 3 seconds. Dorian Johnson said that "before he could get the second sentence out, he started shooting him". That matches the tape exactly. I believe the evidence shows that Wilson fired once from the car with Brown outside and Wilson inside. That shot would be JUSTIFIED, IMO. What Wilson did next is where he should be held accountable. He exited the vehicle and shot at the fleeing suspect. Even if you buy the eye socket story, I don't see how that helps, since a cop is not supposed to be shooting at fleeing suspects, but especially so when they themselves are running, and WOW, if his eyesight is blurry, what the hell would he be doing firing a weapon? This says to me his judgement was clouded. My suspicion is that he was pissed off beyond control.

What happened next is that one of the bullets hit Brown in the arm, which made him jerk and stop running. This matches all the accounts. Then he turned around and spoke to Wilson. This matches all accounts.

By this time, Brown had been shot twice, but neither was life threatening.

But as soon as Brown turns and speaks Wilson fires four more shots. We know this because the audio shows the time between the volleys is so short. There was no time to do much else. Had it been 10 seconds, maybe. But it's between 2-3 seconds. There's no way Brown stopped, turned, talked, then charged. Witnesses and the recordings and the forensics are all pretty well in agreement here unless you want to nitpick minor errors from the people who were there.

So that means all four final shots hit. This also shows the contrast between Wilson's shooting when the suspect is running vs. when he's standing still. All four of those shots hit. That suggests Brown wasn't moving very fast, and that Wilson wasn't running either.

Again, this matches the witnesses.

All in all, I think the evidence is squarely against the officer unless there's some hidden evidence the Ferguson police is sitting on for some unknown reason. But judging by the way they leak so far, I'd bet against that.

I agree that something like this probably happened, but I am not sure Wilson would be found guilty on this scenario, even if it could be proved to have happened. Wilson seems to be guilty of bad judgment here. The decision to chase a suspect without backup is highly problematic. If these were truly dangerous suspects the two on one nature of the situation would make it horribly dangerous for Wilson. So Wilson had to have given chase with a knowledge that the danger level of these suspects was only moderate and if the danger level of these suspects was at the worst only moderate why was it so important to chase them and in particular why was it so important for him to make a single handed arrest?

An unarmed fleeing suspect is a threat, how?

Because he tussled with Wilson?

Common police sense would say let the kid run, get his friend and track Brown down later. It is extremely unlikely Brown could not later be found.

But if you are pissed and not a well disciplined cop ...

I agree with this. But turning this set of facts into serious charges against Wilson will be difficult. Wilson seems to have shown poor judgment, perhaps beginning with the tussle in and/or near the car. But poor judgment by a cop trying to arrest a robbery suspect is not likely to be judged as criminal I suspect but IMO it should be penalized severely as violations of police procedures with penalties that might include loss of job. My guess though is that isn't going to happen either.

Posted earlier.. 1080 HD for best visual ...




The first shot on the recording is only 1 second into the recording, so any shots before that didn't make it in the mix...

I dug this up because I wanted to verify that it was plausible that the first shot just happened to not be recorded. That certainly seems to be the case. But then I wondered what kind of a recording is this? Was somebody listening on the other side or was this guy leaving a message? Regardless, this seems like a strange way to start a conversation or a message.

 

[Cain]

I suspect that three seconds is enough time to go from hands up, do an about face and go forward a step while saying "Watchya gonna do, shoot me? "

Not only is three seconds not enough time, but it means Brown had to have been hit at least twice, and at least once while running away, so it makes no sense for a shot man to say, "What're you gonna do? Shoot me?" And there's not enough time to stop, turn around, and ask a rhetorical question. So if the first six shots heard in the audio recording came while Brown was running away, then it does seem to disprove the Josie account.

Elvis' post above is one way of squaring the Josie version of events with the audio.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The link I provided would give you some idea of that, actually.
Now, about your assertion Brown had no criminal record.
I asked if juvenile records were sealed and I haven't seen a reply to that yet. I may have missed your answer, of course.
How do you know Brown had no record?

Because the Ferguson police would have most certainly leaked that already to the press.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Brown's head was down before the kill shot(s) and probably also before both head shots.

Did that happen during or before the three second pause?

If we wanted to make the 'Wilson shot in self defense' scenario work Brown would have had to have his head up during that three second pause and down for the last 2 bullets in what, a 2 second time frame?

Wilson lets off a 4 shot volley while he allegedly believes Brown is coming at him. Did he mistake Brown falling or getting down for "coming at him"?

I guess if that is an answer to my question it would be:

" I don't have any evidence that rules out any point during that time.. "

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think the sound recording really sheds that much light on events, because both Brown and Wilson could have been doing just about anything during that time.

One thing it does do is confirm what some of us had said all along, which is that (other than the pause between volleys) the shots are very tightly spaced.

Early on a lot of people here and elsewhere were talking like Wilson was having time to reassess Brown's threat level between each shot, and some of us said no... officers are taught to basically unload in very rapid succession once someone has been deemed a threat which rises to that level.

The only time in that audio reassessment can have taken place is in that gap. The audio leaves us where we've always been: asking whether Brown's actions before shot #1 justified shot #1, and whether his actions before volley #1 and between that and volley #2 justified them.

Wilson gave Brown that pause, what did Brown do with it? We still don't know with any certainty.

And there's nothing hard to believe about Brown only pitching forward in the very final moment, exposing his head to shots which were coming regardless. Falling forward happens very fast.

And, once again the key problem is left out.

Brown was killed instantly by the last shot. We know because he lost all muscle tone at that point and fell on his face which is what the autopsy showed.

That puts Brown with his head down and Wilson still firing.

Given the 3 second pause before the final 4 shots, at what point did Brown's head reach that position in which he received two shots to the head?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Which is not inconsistent with Brown falling forward ( for whatever reason ), and still being several feet from the ground when a shot hit the top of his head..

It would be difficult to speculate how high from the ground Wilson was holding his gun..

OK, so here we go, Brown is falling. Wilson wasn't shooting for 3 seconds and then he shot at a man falling or getting down.

 

[LTC8K6]

If Mike's head diagrams are accurate, you can't get the trajectories unless Wilson is shooting from a higher level than Brown's head is.

Yeah, like I've said a hundred times, mid-fall, going to the ground, and Wilson fires his last two shots.

But that doesn't mean he won't go to jail for the shooting. He will unless there's a blockbuster out there in his favor, imo.

 

[davefoc]

Because the Ferguson police would have most certainly leaked that already to the press.

I'm not so sure. The Josie statement doesn't count as a leak, the release of the robbery tape wasn't a leak. There seem to have been leaks about Wilson's injuries but they have been contradictory and really not helpful or harmful to Wilson. If Wilson was significantly injured may he precipitated the altercation and if he didn't have significant injuries maybe his judgment wasn't as impaired as it seems. Regardless, almost (or perhaps all) the details of the investigation have not been leaked or released. It looks like the people investigating this incident are mostly being careful to not ti release the evidence until at least it is presented to the grand jury.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... I agree that something like this probably happened, but I am not sure Wilson would be found guilty on this scenario, even if it could be proved to have happened....

If Wilson only shot at the fleeing Brown, and killed him in the process, Wilson might or might not be guilty of using excessive force.

But instead what we have is evidence Wilson might have shot a man that was surrendering or falling down. That would be a crime, not just a negligent mistake.

 

[LTC8K6]

OK, so here we go, Brown is falling. Wilson wasn't shooting for 3 seconds and then he shot at a man falling or getting down.

Brown isn't falling yet. Thus the pause. Brown falls within the frame of the last volley.

Why doesn't that fit?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Given the 3 second pause before the final 4 shots, at what point did Brown's head reach that position in which he received two shots to the head?

I believe what I always have, Brown likely fell into the final couple shots which were coming to that spot no matter what. Unfortunate for him, but an occupational hazard of violent felons.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

OK, so here we go, Brown is falling. Wilson wasn't shooting for 3 seconds and then he shot at a man falling or getting down.

Why does brown have to be falling before the last four shots are fired, for one of them to hit the top of his head? Particularly the last one..

The hit in the forehead, then the top of the head, is consistent with the shots following an arc coinciding with the target falling forward..


This has been explained several times..

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I guess if that is an answer to my question it would be:

" I don't have any evidence that rules out any point during that time.. "

You're tap dancing around the problem.

Yeah, like I've said a hundred times, mid-fall, going to the ground, and Wilson fires his last two shots....

You both need to account for two hits to the top of the head given a 3 second pause where Wilson should have seen Brown was falling or getting down.

Otherwise Brown would have had to fall or be getting down during the last volley and given two of the 4 shots were in a head that was already bent down, that doesn't leave any time for Brown to go from appearing threatening to falling/getting down.

Brown had to fall or be getting down during or before the 3 second pause.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not so sure. The Josie statement doesn't count as a leak, the release of the robbery tape wasn't a leak. There seem to have been leaks about Wilson's injuries but they have been contradictory and really not helpful or harmful to Wilson. If Wilson was significantly injured may he precipitated the altercation and if he didn't have significant injuries maybe his judgment wasn't as impaired as it seems. Regardless, almost (or perhaps all) the details of the investigation have not been leaked or released. It looks like the people investigating this incident are mostly being careful to not ti release the evidence until at least it is presented to the grand jury.

It has nothing to do with Josie's call.

They leaked the store video (the county police voiced anger the Ferguson police did that) and the confidential medical report of pot in Brown's system.

 

[Cylinder]

You're tap dancing around the problem.

You need to account for two hits to the top of the head given a 3 second pause where Wilson should have seen Brown was falling or getting down.

What's the evidence that Brown was falling or leaning during the three-second pause in the audio? Why can't the leaning of falling be during the second burst?