Michael Brown Shooting

[TheL8Elvis]

That has not been established, has it?

That claim seems to have evolved from the claim that FPD didn't write an incident report referencing the shooting. A likely scenario is that SLCPD had jurisdiction (as is standard with small jurisdictions), created an incident report, took a narrative from Wilson close-in-time, waited 72-hours and did an interview with him. I've seen no claim specifically asserting Wilson had invoked -- just that the prosecutor has been in touch with his attorney but not Wilson and that he would be invited to appear in the grand jury investigation.

http://time.com/3146887/ferguson-michael-brown-darren-wilson-questions/

The incident report, filed by the St. Louis County police department, contains no new information on the encounter between Brown and Wilson. There are no written details about the event. As a result, the officer’s account of what transpired when the two men met just after noon on Aug. 9 remains a mystery.
And it will be for some time, according to Brian Schellman, a spokesman for the St. Louis County police department. Schellman told TIME that the department does not intend to release the “investigative” component of the incident report, the part that details Wilson’s version of events.

Schellman said that under the Missouri State “Sunshine” Law, the department was not required to release the information during a pending investigation. As a result, Wilson’s account of what happens will remain confidential unless it is presented by a prosecutor, Schellman said.

“We will not release it,” said Schellman, who noted that this is the county’s normal procedure. “This isn’t any different than a typical larceny from a local convenience store.”

This implies Wilson his given an account to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The washington post had an interesting article yesterday:
Darren Wilson’s first job was on a troubled police force disbanded by authorities

FERGUSON, Mo. — The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.

That was three years ago. One of the officers who worked in that department, and lost his job along with everyone else, was a young man named Darren Wilson.
...


Do all the posters who found Browns felonious background unimportant find this equally unimportant ?

 

[newyorkguy]

I provided a link to the DOJ statement. You provided some hearsay. What you believe appears to be based mostly on what you want to believe.

I think this is unfair. You asked for evidence for my statement that I believed DOJ is looking at the Ferguson PD. I provided it. I told you it was not what I thought I had seen but it was evidence. The person I quoted was relating a first person account of a meeting he attended with the U.S. Attorney General. I have no reason to believe that statement was false.

Are you saying you're convinced that statement is false? Based on what? It sounds like it's based on your not wanting to believe it. Your evidence that they are not investigating past abuses is a one paragraph news release DOJ issued on Aug. 15th saying DOJ and the FBI are investigating the shooting. How does that prove past abuses are not being looked at? It doesn't. This was also reported on the 15th:

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is urging Attorney General Eric Holder to delve deeper into possible civil rights violations in the police response to protests in Ferguson, Missouri, and to press for more accountability by police in communicating information to the public. In a Friday letter to Holder, the commission expressed support for the Department of Justice's investigation of the fatal shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed African American teenager killed by a Ferguson police officer on Aug. 9, but called for more extensive scrutiny of the excessive police response to the subsequent protests. Link

The meeting in St Louis with community leaders I referenced where the head of the local NAACP said US AG Holder assured them, "past civil rights concerns regarding the Ferguson police department" were being looked into was on the 20th.

 

[newyorkguy]

This was in the New York Times on the 21st:

In addition to the investigation into Officer Wilson, Mr. Holder and top Justice Department officials are considering whether to open a broader civil rights investigation into the Ferguson Police Department. Officials are concerned about reports of other allegations of police abuse, including a 2009 case in which a man said that officers beat him, then charged him with damaging government property — by getting blood on their uniforms. Link

I said I believed they had already decided to expand the scope of the inquiry. This suggests the decision has not been made yet. It does, however, report they ARE concerned with "a 2009 case in which a man said that officers beat him, then charged him with damaging government property — by getting blood on their uniforms." That was the case I thought someone said earlier in this 100-page thread the DOJ was already looking at. We'll see.

Btw we discussed the Jennings PD issue a week ago. Yes, I think most posters dismissed it as irrelevant.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think this is unfair. You asked for evidence for my statement that I believed DOJ is looking at the Ferguson PD. I provided it. I told you it was not what I thought I had seen but it was evidence.

Yes, you provided evidence for why you believed the DOJ was investigating more than the shooting.
But not evidence that they actually are.
I think it's fair.

The person I quoted was relating a first person account of a meeting he attended with the U.S. Attorney General. I have no reason to believe that statement was false.

Are you saying you're convinced that statement is false? Based on what? It sounds like it's based on your not wanting to believe it. Your evidence that they are not investigating past abuses is a one paragraph news release DOJ issued on Aug. 15th saying DOJ and the FBI are investigating the shooting. How does that prove past abuses are not being looked at? It doesn't. This was also reported on the 15th:

The meeting in St Louis with community leaders I referenced where the head of the local NAACP said US AG Holder assured them, "past civil rights concerns regarding the Ferguson police department" were being looked into was on the 20th.

I'm saying until I hear the Justice Dept affirms that they are investigating more than just the shooting, I don't have any reason to believe they are.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This was in the New York Times on the 21st:



I said I believed they had already decided to expand the scope of the inquiry. This suggests the decision has not been made yet. It does, however, report they ARE concerned with "a 2009 case in which a man said that officers beat him, then charged him with damaging government property — by getting blood on their uniforms." That was the case I thought someone said earlier in this 100-page thread the DOJ was already looking at. We'll see.

Btw we discussed the Jennings PD issue a week ago. Yes, I think most posters dismissed it as irrelevant.

Specifically, the fact that they were disbanded ? I don't recall reading about that before, or seeing it discussed. Link ?

In fact, all the media outlets that are now reporting it seem to have written those stories in the last 24 hours.

The only thing I recall being discussed was that he was on the jennings police force prior to the FPD. Not that it was disbanded and he (along with everyone) was fired because "You’re dealing with white cops, and they don’t know how to address black people...”

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thank you for the thoughtful comments. Before I read your posts I had not read through the eyewitness statements in detail. I found this site that had them all in one place:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...ess_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html

I agree that these statements are compelling. Of course, there is so much we don't know here and even these statements are not delivered in an official context and the witnesses obviously have not been cross examined. Even in the face of those statements I still doubt that Wilson fired on Brown while he was clearly attempting to surrender, but it seems more likely now than it did before.

I also tried to find something on the statements that were captured on video just after the shooting that supposedly support Wilson. I found this:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

It doesn't exactly absolve Wilson, but it looks like it supports the Wilson friendly scenario a bit.

Overall, one of the worst things as far as the search for truth goes is that Wilson seems not to have made an official statement. This certainly allows the possibility that whatever Wilson says will be carefully crafted to fit within the available evidence. I don't think this should be allowed, but I also think it is standard procedure for all American police departments. I think there were some court decisions that make it so that a police officer can assert his right against self incrimination without being forced to resign from his job. I think that is bad policy but what I think about that is obviously not of much significance. That is just the way it is and the fact that Wilson is allowed to craft a story after he is made aware of the evidence against him isn't unusual for police.

Wow, an actual discussion, like how I remember the JREF from days of old.

I am open to changing my opinion should more evidence surface.

The way I see the conversation caught on that video is that it doesn't say what is being claimed.

#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

That doesn't say charging with his head down. It doesn't say running toward. It only says Brown was moving back toward the cop. The people who see it as supporting Wilson draw this conclusion:

This is terribly important because if Mike Brown had been shot, and he advanced towards the cop instead of surrendering, it would substantiate the narrative that the policeman shot in self-defense due to the fact that he was being threatened with severe bodily harm.

It's still possible that witnesses closer to Brown could see he was trying to get down on the ground surrendering. In addition people closer to Brown said he was verbally saying don't shoot or words to the effect he was unarmed and surrendering.

Mitchell said Brown was down before the last two shots, and the autopsy corroborates this. Not down on the ground down all the way, and that nonsense about Wilson shooting Brown who was actually on the ground don't fit the autopsy. But that is also not what Mitchell claimed. Her account was given the day of the shooting and before the autopsy.

That article supporting Wilson said

It’s far too unlikely that these two accounts are similar accidentally, having been from such disparate sources.

Well if that is so significant, then the three witnesses who told the same story about Brown trying to surrender is also unlikely to be similar accidentally.


The forensics of the shirt, cartridge locations, and fingerprints/DNA on the officer's gun are important elements we still don't have.

 

[NYCEMT86]

The EMTs were not allowed to go near Michael Brown.

Not according to the actual paramedics that were there or the video of a Paramedic checking for vital signs.

http://www.ems1.com/paramedic-chief...enced-the-first-day-of-the-Ferguson-shooting/

His body was left on the street for hours, blanket or no blanket. That was one of the things that outraged so many people.

In NYC, I can tell you it is standard if we pronounce death in the field, we leave the body in the custody of the NYPD until the medical examiners office picks up the body. Even if the death looks to be of natural causes, there is always an investigation done by the NYPD then by OCME. It looks like the same procedure is done here, because there is another video of the shooting. The video below shows Michael Browns body being picked up by the ME's office, which I've heard is shared throughout the entire county. So like NYC, you can be sitting for hours before the body is removed from the scene just waiting for the ME's office to show up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wt8yEGacIs&bpctr=1408918637

 

[ProBonoShill]

From the court document that was linked:


So he was charged with DWI but was allowed to plead to Careless and Imprudent Driving.

Yeah, I though that was clear in my original reply.

Why? Because he was such a good guy?

Criminals get plea deals all the time, you weren't aware of this?

There are other factors involved that suggest there is more here than meets the eye. More from the court document:

There is more here than meets the eye? Care to share with the rest of us?

I'm not sure what that means, Mr. Davis did not "complete" his sobriety test.

Well considering he was giving the Paramedics and hospital staff a hard time, I'm assuming he either refused to take the test or wouldn't co operate while the test was being administered.

He was in custody for two days with an untreated concussion.

If he wasn't so belligerent with the Paramedics at the jail or the medical staff at the hospital maybe his concussion wouldn't have been left untreated.

I had also asked if, as police charged, Davis punched an officer, breaking the officer's nose, was he charged? He was charged. A year later.

Not only was he charged a year later, the officer in question filed a civil suit against Davis.

My faulty critical thinking skills notwithstanding, this case smells.

Well it does if you're not a skeptic and are predisposed to hate law enforcement.

When you get something better than your unsupported assertions and testimony from a drunken criminal, let us know.

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip>
Btw we discussed the Jennings PD issue a week ago. Yes, I think most posters dismissed it as irrelevant.

Specifically, the fact that they were disbanded ? I don't recall reading about that before, or seeing it discussed. Link ? In fact, all the media outlets that are now reporting it seem to have written those stories in the last 24 hours. The only thing I recall being discussed was that he was on the jennings police force prior to the FPD. Not that it was disbanded and he (along with everyone) was fired because "You’re dealing with white cops, and they don’t know how to address black people...”

<snip>
The officer who shot Brown has been with Ferguson PD reportedly about four years. Prior to that he worked as a police officer in neighboring Jennings for two years until it was disbanded because they got caught stealing grant money.

Jennings closed its police department in late 2011 in the wake of a federal probe into the theft of grant money, and turned public safety over to St. Louis County Police. Link

It sounds to me like there might be a real problem with local police ethics in St. Louis County...

This was the original message posted on Aug. 17th. The news quotes (for which there is a link) was from a St. Louis Post Dispatch article published Aug. 15th. Here are the only two replies I'm aware of.

Okay, sure. Whatever.

A corrupt local Police Dept?? Never!
One of the local dept's I used to deal with was disbanded for, among other things, ingesting all the drugs they confiscated...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This was the original message posted on Aug. 17th. The news quotes (for which there is a link) was from a St. Louis Post Dispatch article published Aug. 15th. Here are the only two replies I'm aware of.

Thanks for the link, I missed that.

I'm surprised there wasn't more made of that here, as I see it all the articles about it now are mostly just pot stirring.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Thanks for the link, I missed that.

I'm surprised there wasn't more made of that here, as I see it all the articles about it now are mostly just pot stirring.

Why? What does it actually have to do with the case at hand?

 

[casebro]

Why? What does it actually have to do with the case at hand?

Not much actually, except that if Jennings PD had been closed down for racism, a very broad brush could have spattered some tar on Wilson.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Specifically, the fact that they were disbanded ? I don't recall reading about that before, or seeing it discussed. Link ?

It was mentioned in a quote posted a week ago. newyorkguy commented on it later that same day.

Edit: Whoops. Late to the party...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Not much actually, except that if Jennings PD had been closed down for racism, a very broad brush could have spattered some tar on Wilson.

Pretty much this. The blacks got him fired from Jennings so he must hate them or somethng along those lines.

 

[Bikewer]

I can supply some insight into the municipal police situation in the St. Louis area... It's an odd stew.
The city of St. Louis and St. Louis County are separate entities, and have been politically opposed for many years. At one point, the city was where the jobs were; mostly industrial, and the county was residential and even rural.
However, the factory jobs died, "white fllight" began, and the city began to decline.

Meanwhile, in St. Louis county.... There are some 99 different municipalities. These range from tiny little political entities only a few square blocks in size, up to large and prosperous cities.
The St. Louis County police has jurisdiction over all of the "unicorporated" county, the non-municipal parts, and also polices numbers of municipalities under contract.
Maintaining a functional police department can be expensive.
Over the years, St. Louis County has been required to take over the policing in a number of municipalities when various forms of hanky-panky were discovered.
Either the police were not qualified under state law, or the city fathers were found to have been requiring thier officers to engage in shady practices, etc.
The city of Wellston has been notorious in this regard; city administrations have been getting indicted for as long as I can remember.... County has taken over the policing twice, and may have to do so again.
Various others have abandoned the idea of having a police force due to the high cost, and various county prosecutors have effectively disbanded some departments since they only existed to extract traffic-fine revenues for the city coffers.
In one case, officers were found manipulating a school-stop signal to drive up revenues.

Most all the offending departments have been in small communities that exist solely for the reason of providing an independent political entity that can control it's own revenues without the oversight of the county government.
One might more cynically say to line the pockets of the local politicians....

As I recall with Jennings, it was much more a case of corruption among the city fathers than problems with the police department per se.
Even affluent communities and agencies are not immune from all this.... There was a major scandal with the local State Patrol troop years ago when it was found that the commander was secretly installing listening devices around the headquarters and was taping conversations....
A similar situation occurred when an affluent "bedroom community" incorporated in West county and within a year a major scandal had rocked the newly-formed police department.
Always something fun going on.....

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...Btw we discussed the Jennings PD issue a week ago. Yes, I think most posters dismissed it as irrelevant.

I missed it.

Considering it's specifically about racism which might play into Wilson's perceptions about Brown, it is relevant. It's also relevant that Jennings is nearby. So there is evidence of racial discord between the citizens and police throughout the whole county.

There's another curiosity here. I thought Wilson worked for Ferguson for six years and the article says he was fired from Jennings three years ago?

The article is very thorough.

 

[Mike!]

I thought he worked as a policeman for 6 years, and was on the Ferguson force for 4 years. I see the article only says 3 years ago, but gives no dates, so it could have been nearly 4 years ago, or more.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
Maintaining a functional police department can be expensive.
Over the years, St. Louis County has been required to take over the policing in a number of municipalities when various forms of hanky-panky were discovered.
Either the police were not qualified under state law, or the city fathers were found to have been requiring thier officers to engage in shady practices, etc.
The city of Wellston has been notorious in this regard; city administrations have been getting indicted for as long as I can remember.... County has taken over the policing twice, and may have to do so again.
Various others have abandoned the idea of having a police force due to the high cost, and various county prosecutors have effectively disbanded some departments since they only existed to extract traffic-fine revenues for the city coffers.
In one case, officers were found manipulating a school-stop signal to drive up revenues.

Most all the offending departments have been in small communities that exist solely for the reason of providing an independent political entity that can control it's own revenues without the oversight of the county government.
One might more cynically say to line the pockets of the local politicians....

As I recall with Jennings, it was much more a case of corruption among the city fathers than problems with the police department per se.
....

According to the WAPost article,

Racial tension was endemic in Jennings, said Rodney Epps, an African American city council member.

“You’re dealing with white cops, and they don’t know how to address black people,” Epps said. “The straw that broke the camel’s back, an officer shot at a female. She was stopped for a traffic violation. She had a child in the back [of the] car and was probably worried about getting locked up. And this officer chased her down Highway 70, past city limits, and took a shot at her. Just ridiculous.”

Police faced a series of lawsuits for using unnecessary force, Stichnote said. One black resident, Cassandra Fuller, sued the department claiming a white Jennings police officer beat her in June 2009 on her own porch after she made a joke. A car had smashed into her van, which was parked in front of her home, and she called police. The responding officer asked her to move the van. “It don’t run. You can take it home with you if you want,” she answered. She said the officer became enraged, threw her off the porch, knocked her to the ground and kicked her in the stomach.

The department paid Fuller a confidential sum to settle the case, she said.

That doesn't sound like corruption was the main problem. It's also worth noting that was Wilson's first police job. So his introduction to police standards was in a department with an excessive use of force and disrespect for black citizens. Even if Wilson had a clean record, he might have seen abnormal police work as normal.

The article also notes something you were saying about the small communities:

A newly released report by a nonprofit group of lawyers identifies Ferguson as a city that gets much of its revenue from fines generated by police in mundane citations against residents — what the group calls a poor-people’s tax.

That can't make for good public relations, when the community views the police as writing tickets to generate income rather than policing crime.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Pretty much this. The blacks got him fired from Jennings so he must hate them or somethng along those lines.

That's what you think people are saying here?

It's clear a lot of police in the county have little respect for a lot of the citizens in the county. It's clear a lot of citizens in the county view the police as enemies, not friends.

Wilson stopped to order two young men out of the street. That's crazy right there. What an absolutely unnecessary 'crime' to bother with. What was the point?

It's not about getting even by shooting Brown. It's about losing one's temper when a couple of young men ignored your authority. Or, about being so certain young black men are thugs you don't stop to notice one is surrendering, you shoot before you notice because you are acting on stereotypical biases.