Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Tank]

The onus was fulfilled. He was a son which at 12 lost a father because some thug took a pistol from the policeman and killed him. The situation is too identical to not ask about the bias.

Okay, it was asked about and he declined to step down, so apparently he answered by saying it won't be a problem.

If his mother had been raped when he was 12 would that mean he could never try any rape cases?

Replacing temporary him cost nothing and appease people.

Appeasing people has a massive cost. The cost is the precedent set, and the encouragement of more and greater demands for capitulation and appeasement. Down that road is mob rule, pure and simple. The cost is the slow and steady erosion of the rule of law.

 

[This is The End]

and no stigma need be attached.

Exactly.

In fact it can easily be taken as evidence of propriety. Not to mention a gesture of good faith.

Yep.

 

[Bikewer]

Should be noted that in St. Louis County, the Prosecuting Attorney is an administrative post primarily, and that actual cases are normally handled by lower-level prosecutors from the staff.
Here's a quote from a news article:
"As the County Prosecutor, McCulloch can be expected to have input into major decisions about the direction of the case, but it is likely that assistant attorneys will be the ones to handle the day to day matters relating to the grand jury and prosecution. Indeed, McCulloch's spokesman told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that the grand jury proceedings starting on August 20 will be handled "by the attorney regularly assigned to the grand jury. It will not be handled by Mr. McCulloch."

The decision to indict, to issue a "true bill", rests at this point with the grand jury. If an indictment is issued, then the individual would be booked on whatever charges were returned and a trial date would be set.
The prosecution at trial would be handled by "prosecutors" from the staff.

As many have noted, this would likely be a drawn-out affair. Note that the officer is subject to the possibility of a civil "wrongful death" lawsuit....IF it can be shown that he acted outside the law or outside of his own department's policies and procedures.

If a police officer acts within those restrictions, he is shielded from such prosecution....
However... the department itself is not. In these cases, the lawsuit seeks to prove that the policies and practices of the city itself vis-a-vis it's police department are at fault.

Also... The officer may be the subject of federal prosecution. In order to do this, it must be shown that he violated Brown's civil rights. Normally, they would have to prove that he acted out of racial hatred. (or other civil-rights offenses) A history of proven bigotry would have to be shown.

 

[GWCarver]

Despite your outrage, It might be seen as a conflict of interrest. The fact that it hapenned 50+ years ago do not change that. On the contrary there are arguments that the kid was 12 year old when it happened might have marked him profundely. And thus influencing him undully in this case, no matter which way the influence goes.

I think it is clear what is going on here, and it is certainly about bias, but not the bias of the county prosecutor. Just is in the Zimmerman case, the same race hustlers and African-American ambulance chasers have come in from outside during the dead time between the shooting and the completion of the investigation and are attempting to circumvent the usual due-process with lynch mob justice. What is important to note is their decision to railroad Wilson has been made without any actual access to or evaluation of the evidence in the case.

In the Zimmerman case, State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, who covered Sanford, had decided not to act on Detective Chris Serino's capias (charging document) due to lack of evidence, which is the way the system works and that should have been the end of it. However, Wolfinger suddenly decided to send the case to a Grand Jury, only to turn around and step aside two days later in the "best interest of justice", or some nonsense like that, and Pam Bondi replaced him with Angela Corey, self-professed "victim advocate" and all-around slug. Corey then proceeded to cancel the Grand Jury and create a fictitious "Information" with complete disregard to the actual evidence in the case and charged Zimmerman with Murder 2. She then held hands with the parents of the "victim" in the courtroom while the jury found Zimmerman was not guilty because he had acted in self-defense, meaning Trayvon Martin was the cause of his own death.

A rerun of that attempted railroad is what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Crump, and Parks actually want, just with a different verdict this time.

 

[quadraginta]

Okay, it was asked about and he declined to step down, so apparently he answered by saying it won't be a problem.

If his mother had been raped when he was 12 would that mean he could never try any rape cases?

If the case was about a black teenager raping someone's mother, and his mother had been raped by a black teenager then, yes, he might want to consider recusing himself.

Appeasing people has a massive cost. The cost is the precedent set, and the encouragement of more and greater demands for capitulation and appeasement. Down that road is mob rule, pure and simple. The cost is the slow and steady erosion of the rule of law.

Characterizing recusal as appeasement is deeply dishonest.

It is done all the time, and is a standard mechanism to avoid the appearance of impropriety, as well as to avoid later challenges to decisions.

Anywhere recusal as a practice might lead we arrived at long ago. It doesn't seem to have resulted in this slow and steady erosion of the rule of law which you claim must be the result.

Quite the contrary, it has done nothing but bolster faith in the impartiality of our legal system.

Why do you object to that?

 

[newyorkguy]

Should be noted that in St. Louis County, the Prosecuting Attorney is an administrative post primarily, and that actual cases are normally handled by lower-level prosecutors from the staff. <snip>

There are several highly questionable cases -- the man arrested for getting his blood on the Ferguson officers who beat him up, the two unarmed drug dealers who were shot and killed in questionable circumstances -- and other less dramatic ones that indicate the St. Louis County prosecutor's office has not been effective in cases involving police misconduct. In fact I believe DOJ is investigating that office because of a pattern of these cases. Cases that indicate the St. Louis County prosecutor's office has protected law enforcement while ignoring legitimate concerns of the community.

In many instances, in order to maintain public confidence, prosecutors in this situation would recuse themselves. If for no other reason than to spare the community any further problems. By refusing to step aside, McCulloch is setting the stage for a new outpouring of outrage if the Grand Jury fails to indict.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are several highly questionable cases -- the man arrested for getting his blood on the Ferguson officers who beat him up, the two unarmed drug dealers who were shot and killed in questionable circumstances -- and other less dramatic ones that indicate the St. Louis County prosecutor's office has not been effective in cases involving police misconduct.

You are arguing that the entire prosecutors office is ineffective against misconduct - that's a different argument than the prosecutor stepping down due to some 50 year old potential conflict.

In fact I believe DOJ is investigating that office because of a pattern of these cases. Cases that indicate the St. Louis County prosecutor's office has protected law enforcement while ignoring legitimate concerns of the community.

You believe ? :
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2014/August/14-crt-867.html
At the onset of our federal civil rights investigation, the Attorney General of the United States promised a thorough and complete investigation into the shooting death of Michael Brown. "

If you can find where the are investigating the FPD for or the prosecutors office for a history of anything, I'd like to see that evidence.

In many instances, in order to maintain public confidence, prosecutors in this situation would recuse themselves. If for no other reason than to spare the community any further problems. By refusing to step aside, McCulloch is setting the stage for a new outpouring of outrage if the Grand Jury fails to indict.

There will be outrage if the Grand Jury fails to indict. PERIOD.

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip>
If you can find where the are investigating the FPD for or the prosecutors office for a history of anything, I'd like to see that evidence. <snip>

I thought I read that in the thread, that DOJ was looking at, among other things, the case involving the man --arrested by mistake -- who was charged with destroying government property after getting his blood on the uniforms of the Ferguson police who beat him. There were at least two other incidents mentioned in this thread.

This quote is from an MSNBC story although that's not where I saw the original comment. I'm not sure where it was.

Adolphus Pruitt, president of the St. Louis chapter of the NAACP added that Holder assured the group that the federal investigators leading the probe into Brown’s killing and a parallel look into past civil rights concerns regarding the Ferguson police department, is being handled by “the most experienced people who deal with these kinds of issues.” Link

 

[bobdroege7]

I still have not seen enough information to decide whether or not Wilson should be charged and tried, but I think if the first shot is justified it is hard for me to expect Wilson to stop just because Brown decides to surrender.

And what if that day Brown decided to stop smoking.

What if he decided to buy instead of steal.

What if he decided to get out of the street when Wilson ordered him to?

He would still be alive, his decisions lead him down a path where death became a more and more likely outcome.

 

[tsig]

I still have not seen enough information to decide whether or not Wilson should be charged and tried, but I think if the first shot is justified it is hard for me to expect Wilson to stop just because Brown decides to surrender.

And what if that day Brown decided to stop smoking.

What if he decided to buy instead of steal.

What if he decided to get out of the street when Wilson ordered him to?

He would still be alive, his decisions lead him down a path where death became a more and more likely outcome.

Yep, Wilson is just a force of nature that the dumb black kid decided to throw himself in front of.

 

[GWCarver]

I thought I read that in the thread, that DOJ was looking at, among other things, the case involving the man --arrested by mistake -- who was charged with destroying government property after getting his blood on the uniforms of the Ferguson police who beat him. There were at least two other incidents mentioned in this thread.

This quote is from an MSNBC story although that's not where I saw the original comment. I'm not sure where it was.

I really try to stay away from all things legal except to quote experts, but it does appear the Henry Davis lawsuit against the three officers in the Ferguson P.D. was dismissed by a district court. It was appealed in July of this year.

http://rt.com/usa/180680-ferguson-henry-davis-blood/

 

[bobdroege7]

Yep, Wilson is just a force of nature that the dumb black kid decided to throw himself in front of.

Well, Brown sent Wilson to the hospital and Wilson sent Brown to the morgue.

Who said Brown was dumb?

Early reports said he was going to college next year, haven't heard much of that lately.

Smart people avoid the police like they avoid tornados, hurricanes and the like.

 

[Cainkane1]

It's so disconcerting that a demographic of America that has for over a century rightly yearned for the day that people would be judged "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". . . could still be fully guided by the color of one's skin and completely deny the content of one's character. The instantaneous amassing of protests, riots and looting sans any facts other than a black and a white were involved is a clear indication that the black community has no intention of practicing what they preach. Racial parity is a two way street; whereas in order to reap the reward of it you must also accept the fact that the content of an individual's character must always trump the color of a person's skin.

The aftermath of Rodney King, Travon Martin and now Michael Brown leads me to the inexorable conclusion that despite the inroads this country has made towards a colorblind society, those who overtly benefitted from it are clearly not satisfied with equality... but instead insist on preferential treatment. What else could explain the fact that prior to the unearthing of the details of Ferguson, the black community in toto rallied around the belief that the white person was racially motivated and the black person was an innocent, angelic victim whose only crime was being black? With the recent emergence of a subset of thugs and 'gangstas' in the black community, is it that impossible to believe that the 'victim' of a police shooting might in fact be one of those thugs and may possibly be the instigator of the incident? Conversely, why is it that the 'whiteness' of the officer is an automatic given that the reason for his actions were solely because of the color of who he interacted with?

One of the tenets I've always lived by is to not judge an individual by outward appearances or physical characteristics, but it gets harder every day to not quantify that belief when it comes to the racial divide. Integration has been yours to capitalize on or squander, and has been for the lifetimes of most of you... do you really think self imposed segregation and retaining a grudge for history's indiscretion is productive to your existence?

 

[Mike!]

Well, Brown sent Wilson to the hospital and Wilson sent Brown to the morgue.

Who said Brown was dumb?

Early reports said he was going to college next year, haven't heard much of that lately.

Smart people avoid the police like they avoid tornados, hurricanes and the like.

"College" is a rather broad term. He was going to trade school (http://www.vatterott.edu/), to learn heating, ventilation and air conditioning.

 

[newyorkguy]

I really try to stay away from all things legal except to quote experts, but it does appear the Henry Davis lawsuit against the three officers in the Ferguson P.D. was dismissed by a district court. It was appealed in July of this year.

http://rt.com/usa/180680-ferguson-henry-davis-blood/

This incident appears to be unbelievably bad. There's two sides to every story but it's hard to imagine what the Ferguson PD's side is, other than to deny everything. This is from the suit that was filed:

At the Ferguson jail, Officer Beaird ordered Plaintiff to enter a cell occupied by another individual. The cell Plaintiff was asked to enter had one bed and the other individual was lying on the bed when Plaintiff was ordered into the cell. Plaintiff saw mats nearby in the jail and noticed another cell occupied by an individual lying on a mat and another individual lying in the bed in the same cell. Plaintiff asked Officer Beaird for a mat and Officer Beaird told Plaintiff that he wasn’t getting one. Plaintiff simply asked Officer Beaird why he couldn’t have a mat like the individual in the other cell. Officer Beaird called other officers to the area outside the cell and told the other officers that Plaintiff was being belligerent and failing to comply with his orders. At least five (5) Ferguson police officers arrived at the area just outside the cell including Defendant White. Defendant White charged plaintiff and grabbed and slammed Plaintiff in the cell against the back wall....Just before Plaintiff was picked up to his feet, Defendant White rushed in the cell a second time and kicked Plaintiff in the head while Plaintiff was lying on the floor and handcuffed with his arms behind his back. Plaintiff’s head bled excessively.

The plaintiff went on to say, that EMS was summoned and they took him to an ER. However at the hospital they refused to render treatment because the plaintiff was insisting on having his injuries photographed, which request they refused.

 

[bobdroege7]

"College" is a rather broad term. He was going to trade school (http://www.vatterott.edu/), to learn heating, ventilation and air conditioning.

Still, that's enough for me to object to calling him dumb, unless he smokes while working with freon systems.

 

[Ladewig]

This isn't a normal circumstance. Yes, recusal is fairly routine but given the nature of this situation the pressure and political taint is too great. The possibility of that standard mechanism being a "foot in the door" for a pre-determined political hatchet job to get underway is just too significant.

if someone recuses himself, then the replacement is not selected by the people who yelled the loudest. The replacement is chosen at random.

Also, I must ask what your definition of " pre-determined political hatchet job" is. Are you implying the the court system is so broken that a biased prosecutor trying to fulfill a political objective could bring about the conviction of an innocent man?

 

[newyorkguy]

I really try to stay away from all things legal except to quote experts, but it does appear the Henry Davis lawsuit against the three officers in the Ferguson P.D. was dismissed by a district court. <snip>

What people are concerned with is the allegation that after being falsely arrested and beaten Davis was charged after some of his blood got on the uniforms of Ferguson police officers.

These kinds of incidents don't occur in a vacuum. I'm not saying Robert McCulloch is personally to blame for the beating, but when his office accepts a charge like this, appears to have done very little investigation and actively resists efforts by someone like Davis to get some justice, then McCulloch can't expect people to have much faith in him. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[casebro]

Still, that's enough for me to object to calling him dumb, unless he smokes while working with freon systems.

Testing your knowledge of HVAC hazards, what's the prob with smoking around freon? Explosion?

 

[newyorkguy]

What people are concerned with is the allegation that after being falsely arrested and beaten Davis was charged with destroying government property after some of his blood got on the uniforms of Ferguson police officers. <snip>

Let's not paint the police with a broad brush either. There are many police departments in the U.S. -- I would hope most -- where if there was this kind of conduct, and there was probable cause to suspect the arrestee's account was true, at least one of those officers probably would've been arrested and charged.