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'What about building 7'?

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The hearing range and flexibility of a human ear/brain combination is far superior at accurately processing audio scenarios like that experienced by people at the World Trade Center on 9/11, than a directional close proximity microphone.

Prior to the explosions and subsequent collapse of the first tower, WTC2, these first responders thought they were dealing with an emergency they understood. At that time they had no precedent to place them "in fear of their lives".

These responders knew what a collapse as described by the "official story" should sound like and would not have used the word "explosion" unless they meant with explosives?

Have you ever heard the word "simile"? Remember when that reporter (I can't remember who) ask Dylan Avery that same question? What a hoot, the expression on Dylans face. :D
 
MM, as people have pointed out repeatedly, those same human ears would be bleeding and stunned and unable to hear anything, assuming they were even still alive despite being in close proximity to explosions. Barotrauma.

I like how you've now piled up at least three contradictory special pleading arguments on top of each other. First the audio would be loud enough to max out the mic - and you have yet to even acknowledge the repeated requests to provide any corroborating examples - then the sound would be muffled enough to not drown out human speech, and finally "short-range" directional microphones all conveniently happened to not catch the sound of the massive explosion even though the human ear still would. Like Turing and LSSBB said, you just keep making excuses. And you don't even admit the previous "explanations" you provided were inadequate, just keep moving them goalposts.

BTW, according to NIST, the CD, with the quietest known conventional explosive, would've still been loud enough to cause hearing damage at a half-mile. It would've "maxed out" the human ear. Incidentally, I note how you casually say that the sounds of the "distant explosion" would've been "mixed in" with the sound of structural failure. The explosion would both a) occur before the failure, and b) be louder than it anyway. Even linear causality is a minor detail for you, isn't it?

It's also interesting how you cut out the part of JDS' post where he asks for clarification of an apparent contradiction in your claims. And, of course, are ignoring everyone else's objections.

I'd really like to see how you're going to wriggle out of being caught quote-mining. Also, after that point, Turi says he, y'know, ran for his life. Did you really think no one here was familiar with the quotes, or wouldn't check?

Sure you can, you just need to take a trip to TRUTHERLAND!
I can't. Someone blew it up with secret nanothermite explosives.

As usual in this forum, intentional misunderstanding reigns supreme.
Perhaps you're confused; we're disagreeing with you.
 
I've personally witnessed controlled demolition of buildings. Not only is it loud at 1/4 mile away, but you can feel the shockwave hit your chest cavity.
 
Have you ever heard the word "simile"?

No explosives....TRAINS caused the collapse. :D


Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall.

Paul Curran -- Fire Patrolman (F.D.N.Y.) North Tower:
I went back and stood right in front of Eight World Trade Center right by the customs house, and the north tower was set right next to it. Not that much time went by, and all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet.

Joseph Fortis -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) T]he ground started shaking like a train was coming. You looked up, and I guess -- I don't know, it was one that came down first or two? Which one?

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118] You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.
 
I live in Valencia, land of the FallasWP. Every year, before and on March 19, we have pyrotechnic exhibitions in a lot of places, aimed at making noise (la mascletà, from Valencian masclet, which is a big type of firecracker, see e.g. «masclet» [in Spanish, but there's a pic]).

It makes the floor rumble, and you feel it all over your body. You are recommended to have your mouth open so that the pressure is as equal in both sides of your ear as possible. And the sonic pressure behind the security area (about 15 m away from the nearest masclet) is usually around 120 dB. It rarely breaks any window.

I lived about 20 km (12 mi) away from the city and I could even hear and see the ones in the city (now I live about 30 km or 18 mi away and I no longer hear them, though I can still see them).

And I can tell you, all the furniture there can be in a building could not nearly do the attenuation necessary for an explosion which would have 130 dB at 800m (0.5 mi) not to be heard over the rumble of the collapse.

I'm surprised MM decided to go down the rabbit hole of getting specific. Almost everyone in the TM knows that that should be avoided like a plague, and only rely on innuendo and veiled, unspecific accusations.
 
With regard to explosions, everyone seems to have their own anecdotal story about what they have heard.

Many here believe, and I do mean believe, rather than actually know, that explosions inside WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7 should have been quite audible.

Because of their real life experiences and/or because they have heard the recorded explosions shown in building demolition videos, it is a strongly held belief that eyewitnesses as well as recording devices should have easily heard any explosions.

To consider this issue fairly, you have to set your biases aside and consider the 9/11 World Trade Center events objectively.

Is it reasonable to dismiss eyewitness testimony and recordings that substantiate the existence of pre-collapse explosions?

It has been argued that because explosions from commercial controlled demolitions can be easily recorded, the same should hold true for the explosions at the World Trade Center on 9/11.

One of the best and clearest examples is this one, to which the firefighter on the phone reacts immediately. Other explosions are also highlighted in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A9X_8flGeM

If you listen closely and crank up the volume, you can hear a muffled explosion (around the 11 second mark), in this WTC7 video just prior to its global collapse;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnmbUDeHus

A big reason for why there are so few comparable recordings is sound proofing.

As I have mentioned previously, a building prepped for a commercial controlled demolition is emptied and its windows are removed. The sound from core explosives easily reflects off the hard surfaces of exposed floors and walls and easily radiates through open perimeter window frames.

Other than localized broken windows, the same conditions did not exist at the World Trade Center towers.

Regardless of whether or not partitions and floor furnishings stand from floor to ceiling, they are highly sound deadening. It may be claimed that these office environments are noisy but without those sound absorbing partitions it would be a loud cacophony. Additionally, the surrounding sealed perimeter windows (securely designed and installed to withstand the forces of nature), totally deflect all but the loudest sounds from inside and out.

It also must be considered that a commercial CD has nothing to hide, and therefore demolition engineers can focus on removing the core immediately to initiate a total building implosion.

Obviously in the case of a covert demolition masquerading as a collapse from plane impact and subsequent fire, a dramatic display of pre-collapse explosions would have been difficult to dismiss.

This would explain the presence of nano-thermite. As observed at the WTC2, once the corner column was cut and the upper section began to topple, pre-planted cutter charges could be ignited in a timed sequence. The sound of explosions, if evidenced (as they were by some eyewitnesses), could now be dismissed as the sound of the collapsing building.

In the case of WTC1 and WTC2, I would therefore suggest that until each began to topple above the impact zones, there would have been a minimal use of explosives.

Again, I point out that the three towers were huge and the energy release from their high speed collapses must have generated an enormous amount of sound.

At some time or another, we've all heard the loud explosive-like boom of a lightning's atmospheric thunderclap.

Yet, with the World Trade Center towers, while the eyewitnesses and public saw and heard something far more intense, the audio recordings largely failed to do it justice.
 
With regard to explosions, everyone seems to have their own anecdotal story about what they have heard.
"Everyone" being, what, a half dozen people in this thread? It's interesting how you gloss over what their actual points are; even explosives much less powerful than those used in CDs are highly noticeable.

Many here believe, and I do mean believe, rather than actually know, that explosions inside WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7 should have been quite audible.

Because of their real life experiences and/or because they have heard the recorded explosions shown in building demolition videos, it is a strongly held belief that eyewitnesses as well as recording devices should have easily heard any explosions.

To consider this issue fairly, you have to set your biases aside and consider the 9/11 World Trade Center events objectively.
Look, we're all familiar with the tactic of making a general address post rather than responding to specific criticisms. Such as your quote-mining.

Is it reasonable to dismiss eyewitness testimony and recordings that substantiate the existence of pre-collapse explosions?

It has been argued that because explosions from commercial controlled demolitions can be easily recorded, the same should hold true for the explosions at the World Trade Center on 9/11.
Right, I forgot, comparing 9/11 CTs to CDs only becomes illogical when people start pointing out all the ways they aren't similar.

One of the best and clearest examples is this one, to which the firefighter on the phone reacts immediately. Other explosions are also highlighted in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A9X_8flGeM

If you listen closely and crank up the volume, you can hear a muffled explosion (around the 11 second mark), in this WTC7 video just prior to its global collapse;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnmbUDeHus

1. Explosions would max out the mics.
2. People heard explosions.
3. Explosions would be caught by the human ear, but not "short-range directional microphones".
4. Here are some videos with explosions.

:boxedin:

Pick one.

A big reason for why there are so few comparable recordings is sound proofing.
It's cute how you imply there are any comparable videos, despite producing not a single one to date.

As I have mentioned previously, a building prepped for a commercial controlled demolition is emptied and its windows are removed. The sound from core explosives easily reflects off the hard surfaces of exposed floors and walls and easily radiates through open perimeter window frames.

Other than localized broken windows, the same conditions did not exist at the World Trade Center towers.
That's a funny way of saying "a great big hole in both buildings from being hit by a plane".

Regardless of whether or not partitions and floor furnishings stand from floor to ceiling, they are highly sound deadening.
Yes, the presence of thin air, not noted for its sound-deadening qualities, is totes irrelevant.

It may be claimed that these office environments are noisy but without those sound absorbing partitions it would be a loud cacophony. Additionally, the surrounding sealed perimeter windows (securely designed and installed to withstand the forces of nature), totally deflect all but the loudest sounds from inside and out.
Again, anything even vaguely resembling a conventional CD certainly qualifies as being among the loudest sounds. You're really arguing that some glass and cubicle walls are going to muffle a supersonic blast wave to any significant degree?

It also must be considered that a commercial CD has nothing to hide, and therefore demolition engineers can focus on removing the core immediately to initiate a total building implosion.

Obviously in the case of a covert demolition masquerading as a collapse from plane impact and subsequent fire, a dramatic display of pre-collapse explosions would have been difficult to dismiss.
As well as being logistically nigh-impossible to plan and install stealthily. More than any sensible risk.

Also, I can't help but notice you produced videos of the alleged explosions earlier in this post.

This would explain the presence of nano-thermite.
Yes, we know, invoking that magical substance that both is and isn't noticably explosive as a given argument requires.

As observed at the WTC2, once the corner column was cut and the upper section began to topple, pre-planted cutter charges could be ignited in a timed sequence. The sound of explosions, if evidenced (as they were by some eyewitnesses), could now be dismissed as the sound of the collapsing building.
Except for the minor fact that they would a)be much louder, and b)occur before the collapse started. Oh, and the fact that cutter charges strong enough to sever even a single major column would be highly noticable.

In the case of WTC1 and WTC2, I would therefore suggest that until each began to topple above the impact zones, there would have been a minimal use of explosives.
Yes, because once large portions of skyscrapers start to collapse, they need the help.

Again, I point out that the three towers were huge and the energy release from their high speed collapses must have generated an enormous amount of sound.
And so would an explosion.

At some time or another, we've all heard the loud explosive-like boom of a lightning's atmospheric thunderclap.
I've also seen the flash and felt the pressure from the expanding air.

Yet, with the World Trade Center towers, while the eyewitnesses and public saw and heard something far more intense, the audio recordings largely failed to do it justice.

Except for the ones you just provided. None of which, I think, occur immediately before the collapses. And, of course, there's the lack of physical evidence of any shenanigans.
 
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Many here believe, and I do mean believe, rather than actually know, that explosions inside WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7 should have been quite audible.

No, it's not just raw "belief" -- it's a conclusion based on empirical evidence that you choose to ignore.

To consider this issue fairly, you have to set your biases aside and consider the 9/11 World Trade Center events objectively.

No, objections to your claims are not automatically biased, nor are your claims automatically objective.

Is it reasonable to dismiss eyewitness testimony and recordings that substantiate the existence of pre-collapse explosions?

It is reasonable to treat them with the same caution as with any other eyewitness testimony.

You neglected to answer why you think it's reasonable to edit your witness' statements to remove the part that disagrees with your use of it.


It has been argued that because explosions from commercial controlled demolitions can be easily recorded, the same should hold true for the explosions at the World Trade Center on 9/11.

That's because it is reasonable to expect demolition charges to behave like demolition charges. Your only response is to invent some fantastical new kind of explosive which magically has all the properties you need.

A big reason for why there are so few comparable recordings is sound proofing.

Asked and answered.

It also must be considered that a commercial CD has nothing to hide, and therefore demolition engineers can focus on removing the core immediately to initiate a total building implosion.

Obviously in the case of a covert demolition masquerading as a collapse from plane impact and subsequent fire, a dramatic display of pre-collapse explosions would have been difficult to dismiss.

Wishful thinking. Rather than address the known properties of demotion by means of explosives, you're just speculating that it was somehow done entirely differently -- yet equally effectively -- so as to align with your predetermined beliefs.

This would explain the presence of nano-thermite.

You have provided no credible evidence of any substance by this or any other name that exhibits the necessary properties.

The sound of explosions, if evidenced (as they were by some eyewitnesses), could now be dismissed as the sound of the collapsing building.

Asked and answered. Those are two radically different kinds of sounds. One is a supersonic shock wave -- necessary so. The other is simply the variable low-frequency, low-amplitude rumble of collapsing rubble.

In the case of WTC1 and WTC2, I would therefore suggest that until each began to topple above the impact zones, there would have been a minimal use of explosives.

Pointless speculation. You're simply presuming a magical silent demolition plan that has the properties you need, not the properties required of such a demolition. As I said, you clearly don't have the faintest idea how explosives work.

Again, I point out that the three towers were huge and the energy release from their high speed collapses must have generated an enormous amount of sound.

Handwaving. You simply speculate that the sound would have been prohibitively loud. This has been empirically tested and dismissed.

Yet, with the World Trade Center towers, while the eyewitnesses and public saw and heard something far more intense, the audio recordings largely failed to do it justice.

No. Once again you're simply speculating that the WTC audio is expected to be different than every other example of the circumstances you propose.
 
Look, we're all familiar with the tactic of making a general address post rather than responding to specific criticisms. Such as your quote-mining.

Let's not let this one slip by.

Miragememories, why did you edit that particular quote in order to remove the portion that clearly disputed your interpretation of it?
 
Obviously in the case of a covert demolition masquerading as a collapse from plane impact and subsequent fire, a dramatic display of pre-collapse explosions would have been difficult to dismiss.

You are correct. Now what you need to do is show that the building couldn't have collapsed because of impact damage and fire and a "covert demolition" would be needed.

You and your clan have never even come close to this. Show everyone why this had to be an intentional demolition by explosives (CD in this case is not appropriate).

You will ignore this because like the rest, you have nothing.
 
To consider this issue fairly, you have to set your biases aside and consider the 9/11 World Trade Center events objectively.

Is it reasonable to dismiss eyewitness testimony and recordings that substantiate the existence of pre-collapse explosions?
No, it's not, you're right.

I checked the first testimony you quoted, the one from Frank Campagna. The quote is in the context of the guy running away and then looking back when the building already started to collapse, and he indeed says this in p.8 (emphasis added):

That's when it went. I looked back. You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down. I turned my head and everybody was scattering. From there I don't know who was who.
​
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110224.PDF. Emphasis added. Note he says he sees them, not that he hears them, when the collapse was starting ("That's when it went").

But back to the topic at hand, he also says this (p.3):

We just knew there was a fire up there. Any other explosions that we felt from inside were maybe extra machinery or something like that.
​
So you're right, but attributing these to demolition charges is completely unjustified. There's no report of barotrauma from the people inside the building.

Remember the testimony of David Lim, a PAPD officer who was inside the North Tower when it collapsed, and he reported no explosion just before nor during the collapse. He reported the avalanche getting closer, and the floors pan-caking:

And you could feel the wind of pushing down as they were compressing through the building, you could hear the sound. It was like an on-rushing locomotive or an avalanche. You could almost feel the sound of the floors pancaking on top of each other as they were collapsing.
​
http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/archive/hearing1/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-03-31.htm


One of the best and clearest examples is this one, to which the firefighter on the phone reacts immediately. Other sounds that could be identifiable as explosions are also highlighted in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A9X_8flGeM
FTFY. The first one seems too loud for anything but an explosion. That video was recorded between the two collapses, and one block north of WTC7 (in Murray Street, north of the Fiterman Hall building). See http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video

I think it's plausible that it was a transformer from Con-Ed blowing up, and I also think it's plausible that one of the explosions Barry Jennings heard was that one, and even that it was what blew up the stairs. But that's a different topic.

The rest are pretty questionable as explosions, and could be just heavy stuff falling. There's barely any location information in most of them. The last ones are very close to WTC7 and I'd say it's very unlikely they are any kind of supersonic expansive wave (what gives "high explosives" the name), and it's more likely they are windows exploding or debris falling.
 
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~ snip

If you listen closely and crank up the volume, you can hear a muffled explosion (around the 11 second mark), in this WTC7 video just prior to its global collapse;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnmbUDeHus

MM

Here's where you people get into trouble.

You've previously stated that the "explosions" Barry Jennings experienced in WTC 7 was the so-called smoking gun. But you've got yourself a contradiction.

That occured several HOURS before the clip in that quote.

Please make sense of that.
 
Let's not let this one slip by.

Miragememories, why did you edit that particular quote in order to remove the portion that clearly disputed your interpretation of it?
The reason is obvious: he trusted this page http://911review.com/coverup/oralhistories.html and didn't verify the quotes. All of them are copied verbatim from there; they're the exact same fragments. He only changed some [] to () (and made a mistake in doing so, in the last quote).
 
One of the best and clearest examples is this one, to which the firefighter on the phone reacts immediately. Other explosions are also highlighted in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A9X_8flGeM

A simple yes or no will do (remember you're putting your bias aside). Would there be reason to expect sounds of explosions (not explosives) in a large building fire?
 
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