Michael Brown Shooting

[newyorkguy]

<snip> Baden did not fly down to Missouri until the 17th. <snip> I posted this info earlier in the thread.

The Times article that was linked said Baden and Parcells performed the autopsy together. That it was done on Sunday the 17th and it took four hours. No one has suggested otherwise except a few people on this board and for what reason I have no idea. When the autopsy results were made public Sunday night the people who believe the shooting to be justified were celebrating. I don't really see too much problem with the autopsy!

Edited to add: I see that on some right-wing blogs (and on FOX) they are alleging Parcells performed the autopsy solo on the 15th and that he, Parcells, is not a qualified pathologist (and he's not). However Parcells told a pathology blogger:

Mr. Parcells readily admitted he went to St. Louis a few days prior to Dr. Baden’s arrival so as to help the Brown family’s attorneys with some administrative matters. While he was there, he learned the mortuary where Mr. Brown’s body was being held was planning to embalm him due to the fact it did not have a cooler in which to store the body. Mr. Parcells stated he did take some photographs of Mr. Brown’s body and injuries in order to document the appearance of the gunshot wounds prior to embalming since the embalming process can alter gross findings. But Mr. Parcells was emphatic Dr. Baden, who did review the pre-embalming photographs Mr. Parcells took, was physically present and conducted the official second forensic examination of Mr. Brown’s body on August 17th. Link

 

[casebro]

The 2nd autopsy may have been the federal one, and Baden's the 3rd?

 

[casebro]

Have we heard anything about toxicology reports other then + for pot? Going in, they were supposed to take 3-4 weeks. Was he negative for other street drugs, or are the results not in / not leaked yet?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I understand the relentless snark from the people who are arguing this was a justifiable shooting and have been doing so since almost the first day.

Even the police haven't said it was justifiable.

As well they shouldn't until the investigation is complete. It sounds like they are doing their job.

They haven't said anything one way or the other. A couple of eyewitnesses, plus Brown's companion, came forward to say the shooting looked bad, the shooting looked excessive.

I'm thinking these would have said any use of force was bad. In this case, someone died, and that is unfortunate. However, everyone except the police are free to offer an opinion, based on what they consider to be the evidence so far.. That evidence seems to be changing as time goes on, and some people actually reconsider their initial assessment as more information comes to light.

Yet no one on the 'other' side, the official side, has said yet that the shooting was justified. All they've said is, they're investigating it.

See above...

 

[LTC8K6]

The Times article that was linked said Baden and Parcells performed the autopsy together. That it was done on Sunday the 17th and it took four hours. No one has suggested otherwise except a few people on this board and for what reason I have no idea. When the autopsy results were made public Sunday night the people who believe the shooting to be justified were celebrating. I don't really see too much problem with the autopsy!

Edited to add: I see that on some right-wing blogs (and on FOX) they are alleging Parcells performed the autopsy solo on the 15th and that he, Parcells, is not a qualified pathologist (and he's not). However Parcells told a pathology blogger:

Yes, but I think Parks is pretty clear that the 2nd autopsy is already done, at his presser on the 15th.

 

[casebro]

I'm thinking that calling the grand jury is a way for McCullogh to delay the finding of 'no bill' for six weeks, until the rabble have quieted down.

If he thought he had a slam dunk case, he would have gone ahead with a preliminary instead. And from his interview, he seems to want to present redundent evidence, sounds like delaying the final bill as long as he can?

Hey, will there be a 'coroner's inquest'? Nobody has mentioned those words, I don't know the requirements. I suspect it would be just one more opportunity for the media to stir up controversy.

 

[LTC8K6]

The Times article that was linked said Baden and Parcells performed the autopsy together. That it was done on Sunday the 17th and it took four hours. No one has suggested otherwise except a few people on this board and for what reason I have no idea. When the autopsy results were made public Sunday night the people who believe the shooting to be justified were celebrating. I don't really see too much problem with the autopsy!

Edited to add: I see that on some right-wing blogs (and on FOX) they are alleging Parcells performed the autopsy solo on the 15th and that he, Parcells, is not a qualified pathologist (and he's not). However Parcells told a pathology blogger:

That sounds as if the body was embalmed before the 2nd autopsy was performed.

Baden would not need any pre-embalming photos if the body he is working on has not been embalmed yet.

 

[LTC8K6]

Parcells went down and looked at the body before embalming, and took photos, and likely gave a preliminary opinion. That is probably why Parks says the autopsy is already done when he is asked about it on the 15th.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As well they shouldn't until the investigation is complete. It sounds like they are doing their job.



I'm thinking these would have said any use of force was bad. In this case, someone died, and that is unfortunate. However, everyone except the police are free to offer an opinion, based on what they consider to be the evidence so far.. That evidence seems to be changing as time goes on, and some people actually reconsider their initial assessment as more information comes to light.


See above...

Wow. You don't get it. Don't you know "it is a news story which has attracted a lot of interest"? Why aren't the police and prosecutors contacting Oprah? What else are they doing?

 

[casebro]

Parcells went down and looked at the body before embalming, and took photos, and likely gave a preliminary opinion. That is probably why Parks says the autopsy is already done when he is asked about it on the 15th.

I think the "2nd one" that Parks mentions was probably the federal one. It would have needed to be donw before the body was released. The Baden team would not have had access until the body was released "to the family" / mortuary.

 

[casebro]

Wow. You don't get it. Don't you know "it is a news story which has attracted a lot of interest"? Why aren't the police and prosecutors contacting Oprah? What else are they doing?

They have so little to do they are probably vacationing out of state like their Bro Wilson.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think the "2nd one" that Parks mentions was probably the federal one. It would have needed to be donw before the body was released. The Baden team would not have had access until the body was released "to the family" / mortuary.

No, it's clearly not, imo. He is clearly talking about the family autopsy.

Federal autopsy was last, on the 18th, per CNN.

 

[Distracted1]

I understand the relentless snark from the people who are arguing this was a justifiable shooting and have been doing so since almost the first day.

Even the police haven't said it was justifiable. They haven't said anything one way or the other. A couple of eyewitnesses, plus Brown's companion, came forward to say the shooting looked bad, the shooting looked excessive. Yet no one on the 'other' side, the official side, has said yet that the shooting was justified. All they've said is, they're investigating it.

To your reasoning, as we have had exchanges throughout this thread, am I arguing that this was a justifiable shooting?
I must assert that I have not.
I have, however, been skeptical of the constant assertions that it was a cold blooded, walking while black, murder of an innocent gentle giant. Which is purportedly what caused the rioting to start, and the cop hating to flow.
On a skeptical forum, it seems that the rules of the game require that assertions be examined, and weighed.

If this thread were a trial, who do you suppose " the accused " would be?
Certainly not Mr. Brown, who is repeatedly called the victim.
If this were a trial, the defendant would be the police officer. Presenting evidence that he may be innocent, and questioning the evidence that is trying to convict is the skeptical thing to do.


EDIT. Actually, upon review, I have indeed made posts that can be construed as asserting the shooting was absolutely justified. The sarcasm was not clear, often they were in response to claims that indicated certainty that murder had been committed, and my response was intended to match that certainty with a just as certain counter assertion that the evidence supported just as much. I will endeavor to be more clear forthwith.

 

[Kaosium]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_a2893384-0bcf-51a9-b479-9c7e9496c6a1.html

That strikes me as an excellent way to handle it.

 

[johnny karate]

As well they shouldn't until the investigation is complete. It sounds like they are doing their job.

It's not a question of whether or not they should have released any information (although I think getting in front of this thing a little better would have been helpful), it's whether or not they actually have.

And they haven't. The information we've received from the authorities is effectively none.

Now, maybe that's because they are "doing their job" instead of <insert hilarious Oprah joke here> and they should be lauded for that. But the fact remains there is an awful lot of high-fiving and back-slapping from so-called skeptics in this thread when we have yet to actually see most of the crucial information.

 

[johnny karate]

Parcells went down and looked at the body before embalming, and took photos, and likely gave a preliminary opinion. That is probably why Parks says the autopsy is already done when he is asked about it on the 15th.

Or perhaps Parks was just misinformed.

Both options are at least as likely as the latest conspiracy theory dreamt up by The Conservative Treehouse.

 

[johnny karate]

The findings that support wilson ? The findings that ( as far as we are aware) agree with the other two autopsies ?

That's why I don't understand this attempt to discredit Baden.

His autopsy results were being celebrated in this thread just a few days ago.

Now those same people are alleging a conspiracy theory that maybe he didn't even perform the autopsy.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's why I don't understand this attempt to discredit Baden.

His autopsy results were being celebrated in this thread just a few days ago.

Now those same people are alleging a conspiracy theory that maybe he didn't even perform the autopsy.

I think his autopsy results are celebrated because he was hired to show that Wilson shot Brown in the back, and he was unable to do so.

He was seen as a heavy hitter, and he kind of struck out.

I didn't realize at first that Baden's autopsy is largely irrelevant. I took it too seriously, I admit.

 

[theprestige]

I understand the relentless snark from the people who are arguing this was a justifiable shooting and have been doing so since almost the first day.

I bet you don't.

I bet you can't cite a single post from the first week of this thread where someone argues that the shooting was justifiable.

Even the police haven't said it was justifiable. They haven't said anything one way or the other. A couple of eyewitnesses, plus Brown's companion, came forward to say the shooting looked bad, the shooting looked excessive. Yet no one on the 'other' side, the official side, has said yet that the shooting was justified. All they've said is, they're investigating it.

And therefore... ?

 

[theprestige]

The recent talk about the bonus autopsy reminds me that I meant to comment on this post:

They paid for it to be done, from the most prominent, famous ME in the country.

It seems to me that finding the most prominent and famous ME is suboptimal. Ideally you'd want the most competent, disinterested ME in the country. Somehow I doubt that MEs become famous for being really consistently good at their job, rather than being lucky enough to catch a few high-profile cases and good enough at PR to gain celebrity status as a result.

When I read that someone hired the most famous ME, my conclusion is that they're not looking for quality forensic medicine, they're looking for quality forensic PR. Why not hire the best ME? For that matter, why not just hire any competent ME? For that matter, what was wrong with the competence of the ME that did the first autopsy?