Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[lonepinealex]

I actually do agree with Grinder that the performance surrounding the collection of the bra clasp isn't necessarily an outlier.

As anglo says, the whole video of the 18th December search is illuminating... it's proper cargo cult science. The police make a song and dance of putting marker letters next to items that they've just dug out from a pile of clothes and photographing them in positions that they've just decided upon. As if those locations of items have any relevance at all.

It's like they're acting out what they should have done on the 2nd November.

At the beginning of one of the videos, they spend ages removing a huge pile of clothes from the bed (which no longer has the mattress), then place Meredith's purse on the bed slats with a marker and photograph it - why?? Then, after all that, they seal it in an evidence bag. It's a joke.

They do make the biggest performance of the finding of the bra clasp, but they do make a performance of the other "finds" too. Just not to the same extent.

The worst bit for me is when they pick up the blood soaked jacket. They spend about ten minutes examining all the creases and patches of blood, as if they're looking for extra evidence - like they do with the bra clasp. What are they expecting to see? What kind of procedure could possibly even involve examining an item in (pretend) detail at the crime scene, instead of bagging it up carefully for the lab? The goon holding the jacket then proceeds to turn the sleeves the right way round, even though the fact that they are inside out is evidence of the way the coat was removed from Meredith!

Cargo cult science. It could well be for the benefit of the defence watching in the van, but either way it's all a performance, and looks intended to make crucial evidence collected far too late (for no reason except incompetence) look like it's valid.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes, and I have said several times that there was no way that Stefanoni was going to mobilize her busy lab assistants in Rome, return with them to the Perugia crime scene, coordinate support from the Perugia police and Mignini's office, give proper notification to defense lawyers to come observe via video from a police van outside, go into the cottage, recover the bra clasp, treat it like the crown jewel, drop it to the floor in order to photograph it in situ, take it back to her Rome lab for testing - do all that and THEN discover that it did not have Raffaele's DNA on it. She knew she would "cook the books" in her lab with it.

It is also possible that they assumed that if they tested enough stuff from around Meredeth, something would show his DNA. This is the reason for full disclosure by prosecution. If you test a couple of hundred items and one shows the suspect but of the hundreds tested, a fair percentage show unknown DNA signatures, that is something the defense should know.

 

[Methos]

Out of curiosity anglo.. Do you have a link for it? I haven't watched it.

Police video shot on December 18, 2007: Part 1, Part 2.

 

[Desert Fox]

Cargo cult science. It could well be for the benefit of the defence watching in the van, but either way it's all a performance, and looks intended to make crucial evidence collected far too late (for no reason except incompetence) look like it's valid.

This is one of the main points which I argued is that this whole second evidence collection was meant as a "show" and you use the term "performance." I am pretty sure that we are arguing the same thing.

Maybe some of the evidence had some value but the show overshadowed any value of the evidence. This is different than digging a bullet out of a ceiling that you might have missed the first time.

 

[acbytesla]

Police video shot on December 18, 2007: Part 1, Part 2.

Thank you.

 

[Desert Fox]

Thank you.

Going to have to wait until tonight to download. While the mobile broadband is actually really good here, I still would prefer to use my home internet.

 

[acbytesla]

Going to have to wait until tonight to download. While the mobile broadband is actually really good here, I still would prefer to use my home internet.

Amen to that. It's a world of difference in time.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder

Have you actually watched the Dec 18 video from end to end? It's quite a performance and well worth four hours of your free time.

Not lately. Give me the link. You should have corrected those that said only the clasp was recovered.

 

[Grinder]

I actually do agree with Grinder that the performance surrounding the collection of the bra clasp isn't necessarily an outlier.

As anglo says, the whole video of the 18th December search is illuminating... it's proper cargo cult science. The police make a song and dance of putting marker letters next to items that they've just dug out from a pile of clothes and photographing them in positions that they've just decided upon. As if those locations of items have any relevance at all.

It's like they're acting out what they should have done on the 2nd November.

At the beginning of one of the videos, they spend ages removing a huge pile of clothes from the bed (which no longer has the mattress), then place Meredith's purse on the bed slats with a marker and photograph it - why?? Then, after all that, they seal it in an evidence bag. It's a joke.

They do make the biggest performance of the finding of the bra clasp, but they do make a performance of the other "finds" too. Just not to the same extent.

The worst bit for me is when they pick up the blood soaked jacket. They spend about ten minutes examining all the creases and patches of blood, as if they're looking for extra evidence - like they do with the bra clasp. What are they expecting to see? What kind of procedure could possibly even involve examining an item in (pretend) detail at the crime scene, instead of bagging it up carefully for the lab? The goon holding the jacket then proceeds to turn the sleeves the right way round, even though the fact that they are inside out is evidence of the way the coat was removed from Meredith!

Cargo cult science. It could well be for the benefit of the defence watching in the van, but either way it's all a performance, and looks intended to make crucial evidence collected far too late (for no reason except incompetence) look like it's valid.

Thanks for this. If you went back you find that I have long held that mostly the ILE is incompetent rather than anything else. My recent point was mainly that just because time goes by that doesn't in and of itself destroy or create evidence.

I have long held that the movement of the clasp and the movement of the contents of Meredith's room as well as the movement of Napoleoni and her crew throughout the house compromised it immensely for DNA on the clasp. Though a proponent of incompetence I have always wondered about the clasp because there didn't seem to be a lot of Raf's DNA in the house and certainly not in the murder room.

If the the clasp is to be used at all, the other donors must be identified.

If someone has different recollections of the collection being held in concert with the defense I'd like to hear about it. Although I too connected the date to Raf's shoes going bye-bye as evidence after more information came out I'm pretty sure the cops knew from phone taps and other means that they didn't match well before the 18th.

I repeat a question: If they had found LCN DNA of Koko or an Albanian gang member on the December search does anyone think that discovery would not be significant because of time or the movement of the contents?

 

[Grinder]

This is one of the main points which I argued is that this whole second evidence collection was meant as a "show" and you use the term "performance." I am pretty sure that we are arguing the same thing.

Maybe some of the evidence had some value but the show overshadowed any value of the evidence. This is different than digging a bullet out of a ceiling that you might have missed the first time.

Can you describe what was going on outside the cottage at the time of the search?

Don't forget that all Italian life is an opera.

 

[Desert Fox]

I repeat a question: If they had found LCN DNA of Koko or an Albanian gang member on the December search does anyone think that discovery would not be significant because of time or the movement of the contents?

Being that the crime scene was not really actually secure, how would you know that they did not go through house to pilfer the house?

 

[anglolawyer]

Not lately. Give me the link. You should have corrected those that said only the clasp was recovered.

I could have but I was too lazy. Not as lazy as you though. The link(s) are in a post 5 above yours. To save you going all the way there to look, here is that post again.

Who was saying they only went for the clasp anyway? I missed that. Whatever, they didn't. The idea that a crime scene cannot be visited to collect and preserve vital evidence due to delays involving the defence is nuts. If that's Italian law then it too is nuts. By the way, what does it says about the integrity of Italian law enforcement that they are not allowed to do anything unless under the gaze of defence experts and lawyers?

 

[Desert Fox]

Can you describe what was going on outside the cottage at the time of the search?

Don't forget that all Italian life is an opera.

And all of their Operas are Farces?

 

[acbytesla]

And all of their Operas are Farces?

The best ones are. Otherwise, they are boring as all get out.

 

[Desert Fox]

I could have but I was too lazy. Not as lazy as you though. The link(s) are in a post 5 above yours. To save you going all the way there to look, here is that post again.

Who was saying they only went for the clasp anyway? I missed that. Whatever, they didn't. The idea that a crime scene cannot be visited to collect and preserve vital evidence due to delays involving the defence is nuts. If that's Italian law then it too is nuts. By the way, what does it says about the integrity of Italian law enforcement that they are not allowed to do anything unless under the gaze of defence experts and lawyers?

It is hard to remember everything and I was mistaken that it was due to collecting the bra clasp only.

I stand by argument that though it is bad comedy though picking it up with dirty gloves and then dropping it back on the floor to photograph it. Like "what the hell?"

 

[Desert Fox]

The best ones are. Otherwise, they are boring as all get out.

In that case, they can get an actress to play to play Amanda and leave the real ms Knox out of it.

 

[Bill Williams]

I actually do agree with Grinder that the performance surrounding the collection of the bra clasp isn't necessarily an outlier.

As anglo says, the whole video of the 18th December search is illuminating... it's proper cargo cult science. The police make a song and dance of putting marker letters next to items that they've just dug out from a pile of clothes and photographing them in positions that they've just decided upon. As if those locations of items have any relevance at all.

It's like they're acting out what they should have done on the 2nd November.

At the beginning of one of the videos, they spend ages removing a huge pile of clothes from the bed (which no longer has the mattress), then place Meredith's purse on the bed slats with a marker and photograph it - why?? Then, after all that, they seal it in an evidence bag. It's a joke.

They do make the biggest performance of the finding of the bra clasp, but they do make a performance of the other "finds" too. Just not to the same extent.

The worst bit for me is when they pick up the blood soaked jacket. They spend about ten minutes examining all the creases and patches of blood, as if they're looking for extra evidence - like they do with the bra clasp. What are they expecting to see? What kind of procedure could possibly even involve examining an item in (pretend) detail at the crime scene, instead of bagging it up carefully for the lab? The goon holding the jacket then proceeds to turn the sleeves the right way round, even though the fact that they are inside out is evidence of the way the coat was removed from Meredith!

Cargo cult science. It could well be for the benefit of the defence watching in the van, but either way it's all a performance, and looks intended to make crucial evidence collected far too late (for no reason except incompetence) look like it's valid.

This post above needs to be tweeted and retweeted.

How can anyone (with a straight face) say that the December search produced any meaningful forensics? The whole case against Raffaele rests upon the bra-clasp; that is before even considering that Judge Nencini is about to be given the ISC stamp of approval that woman have Y-haplotypes!

The mattress is missing. Say that again, the mattress is missing.

The United Sections of Cassation needs to review that video, as does the US State Department.

 

[Desert Fox]

This post above needs to be tweeted and retweeted.

How can anyone (with a straight face) say that the December search produced any meaningful forensics? The whole case against Raffaele rests upon the bra-clasp; that is before even considering that Judge Nencini is about to be given the ISC stamp of approval that woman have Y-haplotypes!

The mattress is missing. Say that again, the mattress is missing.
The United Sections of Cassation needs to review that video, as does the US State Department.

Pretty ghoulish taking the mattress

 

[Grinder]

Being that the crime scene was not really actually secure, how would you know that they did not go through house to pilfer the house?

So if the DNA were discovered and the guy never had been in the cottage before the murder you wouldn't pursue it? Do you have any information that the cottage was robbed during the hiatus?

Now let's say the police decided that it would be worthwhile tracking this guy down and he had no alibi, Koko admitted he drove him there night (questioning recorded), he had a history of violence and Rudi finally conceded he was the "blond guy" would the DNA have any probative value?

Even without the above the discovery of the DNA would be of value and should have moved the investigation in a new direction.

I could have but I was too lazy. Not as lazy as you though. The link(s) are in a post 5 above yours. To save you going all the way there to look, here is that post again.

Thank you dear sir. I go from the last spot I was when I resume being on the thread so I didn't see the link until after responding. My deepest apologies.

Who was saying they only went for the clasp anyway? I missed that. Whatever, they didn't. The idea that a crime scene cannot be visited to collect and preserve vital evidence due to delays involving the defence is nuts. If that's Italian law then it too is nuts. By the way, what does it says about the integrity of Italian law enforcement that they are not allowed to do anything unless under the gaze of defence experts and lawyers?

I didn't say it couldn't be visited but that the visit was coordinated with the defense. The PGP long made the case that the defense delayed it but I've never seen any proof of that. If I said the defense delayed it, I shouldn't have because I don't know that. What I do believe I know is that the visit was broadcast to a van or was produced with the defense experts in mind.

At some point in my hectic day I'll check the video but I have no doubt that it will raise the credibility of the Keystone Cops. I'll be busy at 9:30 watching the game.

 

[Grinder]

Pretty ghoulish taking the mattress

It was moved by the Flying Squad IIRC.