The Metaphysical Consciousness

More several peer-reviewed papers about TM:

Impact of Transcendental Meditation® on cardiovascular function at rest and during acute stress in adolescents with high normal blood pressure (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022399901002616)

Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health: a before-after study (http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/25)

Comparison of coherence, amplitude, and eLORETA patterns during Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi practice (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167876011001851)

The Effect of Meditation on Self-Reported Measures of Stress, Anxiety, Depression, and Perfectionism in a College Population (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/87568225.2011.556947#.U_NnsaNc-So)

Show me just one (1) peer reviewed paper where *either* the author *or* the reviewers where not TM practicioners.

All of these are by TM practicioners and have been reviewed by TM practicioners.

Another note so the rest of the thread understands why this is significant:

When you are at a certain level in TM, you are allowed, for a fee for which you have to give a certain percentage to the Maharishi's club, to teach others.

Sound familiar?
 
More several peer-reviewed papers about TM:
..

What is your point here?


I'll tell you more than that.

There are surly persons around the world that naturally aware of the calm aspect of their consciousness during their variant thoughts process, even if they did not practice TBM or TM even once.

The invariant AND the variant hold whether one is ware of it, or not.

Okay, great, then your objection to the meta-analysis is wrong. TM is much of a muchness with other meditation techniques.
 
When you are at a certain level in TM, you are allowed, for a fee for which you have to give a certain percentage to the Maharishi's club, to teach others.

So, you get to experiment on the captive audience and then teach them how right they all were to choose TM so you can repeat it all again? Sounds tedious.
 
So, you get to experiment on the captive audience and then teach them how right they all were to choose TM so you can repeat it all again? Sounds tedious.

Yes, it keeps the mind off the bills...

You may notice that TM is copyrighted/trademarked and protected in all other ways.

Why would anyone prohibit people from achieving peace if this method is so successful?

As it is now, the only way we ever get to peace is when everyone has moved all of their cash to the TM corporation... eh... movement...

Because *that* is the actual and real difference between TM and any other form of meditation: TM costs a bundle whilst the others are free.
 
That, and the dubious reality of this inner peace in the first place. Charging for it generates the appearance of value.
 
I'll tell you more than that.

There are surly persons around the world that naturally aware of the calm aspect of their consciousness during their variant thoughts process, even if they did not practice TBM or TM even once.

The invariant AND the variant hold whether one is ware of it, or not.

surly = crabby, like me

Example: Don't do stand-up in Boston, that's a town full of surly drunks.

Shirley is a man or woman's name

Surely = without a doubt, certainly, indubitably, without question, etc.
 
surly = crabby, like me

Example: Don't do stand-up in Boston, that's a town full of surly drunks.

Shirley is a man or woman's name

Surely = without a doubt, certainly, indubitably, without question, etc.

I think most surly people are aware of that calm Doron mentions and it annoys the hell out of them.
 
What is your point here?
My point here is that the linkage among the invariant AND the variant is always there ready for the use of our consciousness, whether we aware of it, or not.



Okay, great, then your objection to the meta-analysis is wrong. TM is much of a muchness with other meditation techniques.
Not at all, TM is the simplest way for our consciousness to enliven the linkage among the invariant AND the variant.

Which means that if you take a given person that needs some practice (which is actually most of us) in order to establish the linkage among the invariant AND the variant, TM does it more profound and quicker than mindfulness practice, simply because the mindfulness practice is not tuned (as TM does) to spontaneously be aware of finer levels of the thoughts process until one is directly aware of the calm state of consciousnesses (which is naturally free of any thought).
 
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My point here is that the linkage among the invariant AND the variant is always there ready for the use of our consciousness, whether we aware of it, or not.
Really, that was the conclusion to be drawn from a post starting "More several peer-reviewed papers about TM" and then followed by links?

Do any of those links use the words "variant", "invariant" and "linkage"?

Just. So. Puzzling.

Not at all, TM is the simplest way for our consciousness to enliven the linkage among the invariant AND the variant.
Well now, that sounds like a claim.
1. How can one know when the linkage has been enlivened?
2. Has this time to enlivened linkage been measured between a few meditation systems?

If not, I don't know how you can tell between one successful meditation and another. Line up a meditating Buddhist and a TMer and then point at the one who has made it.

(I reckon it will be like identifying the water bottle that has been succussed homeopathically from one that's just been shaken.)

And if you cannot differentiate between them, then how can you claim the meta analysis was wrong to mix systems of meditation?
 
Please demonstrate what you call "the glaring methodological flaws" according the content of Dr. Orme's paper (the version that was published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine).

The version of Dr. Orme-Johnson's paper that was published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine reports as significcant the data gathered from a self-selected group of TMTM ©®-ites representing approximately .33% (that's one-third of one percent) of the study population. Not all of the TMTM ©®-istas in the population; not a random selection of the TMTM ©®-izers in the population. A self-selected tiny group of TMTM ©®-ers. With leave to self-select a sample of that minute size, it would be no trouble at all to mine the data to show the result that left-handed redheads have better numbers than the TMTM ©®-asizers.

Not to mention: nowhere in the study does Dr. Orme-Johnson measure, invoke, refer to, allude to, or mention the "variant" or the "invariant"; to say nothing of their "relationship".

The version of the paper published by Nidich, et al. in the American Journal of Hypertension used, as a control group a population of hypertensive students who were not givien a "similar" treatment, or a "placebo" treatment, but no treatment at all. The study does a brilliant job, not of demonstrating that TMTM ©®-ilization is "better" that other, similar treatments, or than a placebo; the study indicates that, under certain circumstances, at least TMTM ©®-osity may be better than doing nothing at all, or than stressing and distressing hypertensive students by identifying them as needing treatment, then withholding that treatment.

What is "(WLC, forsooth!)"?

"WTC" is "wait-time-control". Did you read the study?

"forsooth" is an ironic statement of disbelief.

When do you, personally, intend to answer my questions?
 
No TM teacher will say this. They will say the mantra is special and that the advanced Sidhi stages are special.

In fact, what you described was almost literally my initiate training. We rounded off with a white handkerchief, a flower and the ringing of a little bell.

The training consisted of watching hours and hours of Maharishi tapes (basically he says he lot 'It's a lawwwww offf naaaatuuurreee...hmmmm' and smiles), drinking nice herb tea, then meditating, then doing a questionaire.

A sidenote on that questionaire: the 'required' answers were obvious and one of them in fact was about not being annoyed that thoughts entered the mind.
I learned later that these questionnaires where being used as 'data' in research.
But the kicker is that if you did not answer correctly, you would need to pay for more lessons and people would pity you...

I am appreciating your input, sir!
 
Really, that was the conclusion to be drawn from a post starting "More several peer-reviewed papers about TM" and then followed by links?

Do any of those links use the words "variant", "invariant" and "linkage"?

Just. So. Puzzling.


Well now, that sounds like a claim.
1. How can one know when the linkage has been enlivened?
2. Has this time to enlivened linkage been measured between a few meditation systems?

If not, I don't know how you can tell between one successful meditation and another. Line up a meditating Buddhist and a TMer and then point at the one who has made it.

(I reckon it will be like identifying the water bottle that has been succussed homeopathically from one that's just been shaken.)

And if you cannot differentiate between them, then how can you claim the meta analysis was wrong to mix systems of meditation?

:bigclap
 
Okay, great, then your objection to the meta-analysis is wrong. TM is much of a muchness with other meditation techniques.

If you carefully read (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10176820&postcount=591) you find that this meta-analysis claims that "it is impossible to select components that might be considered universal or supplemental across practices."

They are right because there is no "universal or supplemental across practices." and a given concrete example can be shown, for example, between TBM and TM, as follows:

TBM is based on the notion that Human suffering is the result of the tendency to block things from being changed, because the fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything is only variant (everything is changed and nothing is invariant).

TM is based on the vedic notion that Human suffering is the result of the lack of natural linkage among the invariant (the calm aspect of mind, which is naturally free of any process, including thoughts process) AND the variant (the active aspect of mind, which is actually its thoughts process).

Moreover TM looks at both invariant AND variant as natural (and therefore effortless complement) aspects of consciousness, where TBM looks only at the variant aspect of consciousness.

I'll give you a concrete example according what is called TM checking, which is a systematic procedure that its aim is to tune TM practice to be done without any efforts in one's mind.

At the first stage of this systematic procedure, one is asked to be aware of the fact that thoughts process is an effortless phenomena, and this stage is equivalent to TBM mental practice that is actually the awareness of the fact that thoughts process is an effortless phenomena, which fits to the Buddhist notion that everything is naturally changed.

But the awareness that thoughts process is an effortless phenomena, is only the first stage of TM checking.

The next stage of TM checking is effortlessly use a mental tool (known as mantra) which enables to effortlessly be aware of finer levels of thoughts process until the invariant calm state of mind (which is naturally free of any process, including thoughts process) is directly known.

TBM is no more than the first stage of TM, where TM is actually the comprehensive mental practice that systematically and effortlessly enables the linkage among the invariant AND the variant essential properties of reality.

1. How can one know when the linkage has been enlivened?
One has to practice a technique that actually enables the linkage among the invariant AND the variant. From your question one can conclude that your TBM practice did not achieve systematically and effortlessly this linkage.

2. Has this time to enlivened linkage been measured between a few meditation systems?

Take, for example, this research:

Transcendental Meditation, mindfulness, and longevity: An experimental study with the elderly. (http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/57/6/950/)
 
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If you carefully read (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10176820&postcount=591) you find that this meta-analysis claims that "it is impossible to select components that might be considered universal or supplemental across practices."
And recent posts have determined that there are universal components. Your strange TM inspeak aside, there is no convincing argument that meditation differs between schools. It may differ in the approach, but not in the terrain. Just like swimming may be breast-stroke or crawl, but you still cross the pool.


TBM is based on the notion that Human suffering is the result of the tendency to block things from being changed, because the fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything is only variant (everything is changed and nothing is invariant).
This is taking one aspect, their notion of reincarnation, out of context. We are talking about meditation and mind - and TBM very definitely speaks of a single, invariant, mystical level under all things.


.. where TBM looks only at the variant aspect of consciousness.
I disagree. My position is now clear.

I'll give you a concrete example according what is called TM checking, which is a systematic procedure that its aim is to tune TM practice to be done without any efforts in one's mind.
I thank you for that, however it does not communicate much to me. It's too full of inspeak and reliant on an insular experience; this is the opposite of what a science would look like, but it might get there one day if the windows are thrown open and some air is let in.


TBM is no more than the first stage of TM, where TM is actually the comprehensive mental practice that systematically and effortlessly enables the linkage among the invariant AND the variant essential properties of reality.

Well, I suppose this is where we part ways and I can't see a means to settle it. You will keep claiming that TM is the better and I will keep saying TBM (or any other system) is basically no different and neither of us has any way to compare the apples.

There's no science only strange language and anecdotes. You have thousands of links to dubious studies all trying to sciencify TM, but so far they lack punch - they are all about thin gruel effects on health which have to be heavily filtered to even see.

One has to practice a technique that actually enables the linkage among the invariant AND the variant. From your question one can conclude that your TBM practice did not achieve systematically and effortlessly this linkage.
Once again, my failings do not enter this story. It's about the claims made by TM as well as TBM.


Take, for example, this research:
Transcendental Meditation, mindfulness, and longevity: An experimental study with the elderly. (http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/57/6/950/)
Another paygate link. From the blurb it has to do with health and life-expectancy in the elderly. I don't see the connection to what has come before.

I'll also use Slowvehicle's wonderful phrase, " Argumentum ad catarractam", which is what these links of yours are becoming, and coming and coming and coming: you don't do us the courtesy of:
1. Supplying a readable study.
2. Supplying your own view on the study, your take, your conception.
3. Arguing in context and remaining on topic; rather you bring in yet another study.
4. Answering questions that have gone before: like where do the terms variant, invariant and linkage appear in the studies you linked?

I've never been in a snow-storm, but I am getting that snow-job sensation.
 
The version of Dr. Orme-Johnson's paper that was published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine reports as significcant the data gathered from a self-selected group of TMTM ©®-ites representing approximately .33% (that's one-third of one percent) of the study population. Not all of the TMTM ©®-istas in the population; not a random selection of the TMTM ©®-izers in the population. A self-selected tiny group of TMTM ©®-ers. With leave to self-select a sample of that minute size, it would be no trouble at all to mine the data to show the result that left-handed redheads have better numbers than the TMTM ©®-asizers.
It goes like this, there is MIC health insurance with 600,000 to 700,000 customers over 5 years.

There are 6 health insurance groups which are parts of MIC, where each group has approximately 2000 members.

One of these 6 groups is SCI health insurance group that gets members only if they are regularly practicing TM.

The needs for medical care are compared between SCI and the other five health insurance groups (which are used as the control groups) along 5 years, and by using standard statistical methods it was found (after 5 years of data collection) that SCI members (also called TM group) used less medical care than the other five health insurance groups (which are used as the control groups), according to the following parameters:
When compared with five other health insurance groups of similar size and professional membership, the TM group had 53.3% fewer inpatient admissions per 1000 and 44.4% fewer outpatient visits per 1000. Admissions per 1000 were lower for the TM group than the norm for all of 17 major medical treatment categories, including -55.4% for benign and malignant tumors, -87.3% for heart disease, - 30.4% for all infectious diseases, - 30.6% for all mental disorders, and - 87.3% for diseases of the nervous system. However, the TM group's admissions rates for childbirth were similar to the norm.


Not to mention: nowhere in the study does Dr. Orme-Johnson measure, invoke, refer to, allude to, or mention the "variant" or the "invariant"; to say nothing of their "relationship".
Here is the relevant part:
Physiologic research shows that the TM
technique produces a state of "restful
alertness" (7, 8). Rest is indicated by reduced
minute ventilation, respiration rate,
plasma lactate levels, and spontaneous skin
resistance responses and increased basal
skin resistance relative to eyes-closed rest
in non-meditating control subjects (7-9).
Alertness or inner awareness is indicated
by increased alpha band EEG power (7, 8)
and coherence (10). Subjective experiences
of a "least excited state of mind,"
also referred to as transcendental consciousness,
are highly correlated with
slowing of respiration and increased EEG
coherence over all frequencies and derivations
(11, 12)
This part actually says that when the mind is its calm (invariant) state, improved correlations among body's activities (the variant aspect) are measured.

The version of the paper published by Nidich, et al. in the American Journal of Hypertension used, as a control group a population of hypertensive students who were not givien a "similar" treatment, or a "placebo" treatment, but no treatment at all. The study does a brilliant job, not of demonstrating that TMTM ©®-ilization is "better" that other, similar treatments, or than a placebo; the study indicates that, under certain circumstances, at least TMTM ©®-osity may be better than doing nothing at all, or than stressing and distressing hypertensive students by identifying them as needing treatment, then withholding that treatment.
This research deals with practice of mental technique, so no placebo can be used here, simply because the control group clearly knows that it does not practice the researched mental technique. Also the aim of this research was to check if TM has any effect on hypertensive students, which we clearly know that they need treatment (if you give them some treatment that reduces blood-pressure, you actually can't conclude anymore what is the impact of TM on blood-pressure w.r.t the control group (the group that does not get any treatment during the research)).

By this research it was found that TM indeed reduces the stress of hypertensive students, which has a good impact on their blood-pressure.
 
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And recent posts have determined that there are universal components. Your strange TM inspeak aside, there is no convincing argument that meditation differs between schools. It may differ in the approach, but not in the terrain. Just like swimming may be breast-stroke or crawl, but you still cross the pool.
Nice metaphor, which demonstrates how one gets things only at the surface level of that pool.

So my suggestion to you is also to dive into the calm depth of this pool, in order to directly know its invariant aspect.

This is taking one aspect, their notion of reincarnation, out of context. We are talking about meditation and mind - and TBM very definitely speaks of a single, invariant, mystical level under all things.
To speak about X is not the same as actually being at X, and TBM can't actually be at X exactly because its practice is based on Buddhism, which according to it everything is variant.

Once again, my failings do not enter this story. It's about the claims made by TM as well as TBM.
According to your pool metaphor, by using TBM, one stays most of the time only on the surface, exactly because TBM lacks the systematic effortless tool that enables one's mind to directly be at its calm (invariant) state.

1. Supplying a readable study.
Done in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175348&postcount=579 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10177368&postcount=619.

2. Supplying your own view on the study, your take, your conception.
Done, for example, in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10176820&postcount=591 or http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10178980&postcount=639

3. Arguing in context and remaining on topic; rather you bring in yet another study.
All studies are on topic.

4. Answering questions that have gone before: like where do the terms variant, invariant and linkage appear in the studies you linked?
Done in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10178980&postcount=639 or http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10176964&postcount=605
 
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