The Metaphysical Consciousness

doronshadmi said:
Also do not ignore the fact that this paper was published by a peer-reviewed journal
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Accolades, even tiny ones, are no substitute for substance.

As for the word technology, TM is indeed mental technology exactly because it is done by the mechanism of thoughts process, where only the activity levels of the process is impotent (the meaning of the thoughts is insignificant for the correct practice).
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You can call any process or algorithm or hippy dance you just invented a "technology" but that is to misuse the meaning of the word.
 
doronshadmi said:
You have got it right.
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doronshadmi said:
Orme-Johnson research can't be considered as scientific in the first place, without invariant AND variant linkage.
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Are you claiming, then, that your "favourite" paper reports work done in a way dependent upon "invariant AND variant linkage"?

In what way does Dr. Orme's Cherry-picked self-selected small-group study demonstrate this?
 
Slowvehicle said:
Are you claiming, then, that your "favourite" paper reports work done in a way dependent upon "invariant AND variant linkage"?

In what way does Dr. Orme's Cherry-picked self-selected small-group study demonstrate this?
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The benefits as shown by Dr. Orme's paper (published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine) are derived form the fact that TM is involved with the improved linkage among the invariant (calm state of mind, which is without thoughts) AND the variant (the active state of mind, which is the thoughts process level).

Another example of TM benefits can be shown, for example, by the following article in the peer-reviewed American Journal of Hypertension:

A Randomized Controlled Trial on Effects of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Blood Pressure, Psychological Distress, and Coping in Young Adults ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3128829/ )

About the journal ( http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/ajh/about.html )
The American Journal of Hypertension is a monthly, peer-reviewed journal that provides a forum for scientific inquiry of the highest standards in the field of hypertension and related cardiovascular disease. The journal publishes high-quality original research and review articles on basic sciences, molecular biology, clinical and experimental hypertension, cardiology, epidemiology, pediatric hypertension, endocrinology, neurophysiology, and nephrology.

The journal is well-regarded, with an Impact Factor of 3.402 and a current ranking of 20 of 65 by Impact Factor in the Peripheral Vascular Disease category of the 2013 JCR Science Edition.
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More articles in peer-reviewed journals are shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175348&postcount=579.
 
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On that meta-study. How does TM's meditation differ from the other forms? In what way is this invariant calm present when you do TM and not present when you do, say, Tibetan Buddhist meditation?
 
doronshadmi said:
The benefits as shown by Dr. Orme's paper (published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine) are derived form the fact that TM is involved with the improved linkage among the invariant (calm state of mind, which is without thoughts) AND the variant (the active state of mind, which is the thoughts process level).
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This is an interesting claim.

When do you intend to provide support for it?

How is it demonstrated in the methodology, the procedure, and the results?

What have you to say about the glaring methodological flaws?

doronshadmi said:
Another example of TM benefits can be shown, for example, by the following article in the peer-reviewed American Journal of Hypertension:

A Randomized Controlled Trial on Effects of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Blood Pressure, Psychological Distress, and Coping in Young Adults ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3128829/ )

About the journal ( http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/ajh/about.html )
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What have you to say about the glaring methodological flaws? (WLC, forsooth!)
 
Donn said:
On that meta-study. How does TM's meditation differ from the other forms? In what way is this invariant calm present when you do TM and not present when you do, say, Tibetan Buddhist meditation?
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Tibetan Buddhist meditation uses mindfulness or concentration mental practice which are done only at the variant level of thoughts process.

TM practice is involved with both invariant (calm state of mind without thoughts) AND variant (thoughts process) acpects of consciousness, and reinforces the correlations among them.
 
Slowvehicle said:
What have you to say about the glaring methodological flaws?
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Please demonstrate what you call "the glaring methodological flaws" according the content of Dr. Orme's paper (the version that was published in the peer-reviewed journal Psychosomatic Medicine).

What is "(WLC, forsooth!)"?
 
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doronshadmi said:
Tibetan Buddhist meditation uses mindfulness or concentration mental practice which are done only at the variant level of thoughts process.

TM practice is involved with both invariant (calm state of mind without thoughts) AND variant (thoughts process) acpects of consciousness, and reinforces the correlations among them.
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That's odd because when I practiced Tibetan Bhuddhism and I meditated for hours every day, we worked towards the state of mind where the thoughts were mere noise against a larger backdrop. Indeed, the aim was to acknowledge each thought (or intrusion) and to let it go without interaction.

I'd say the variant and the invariant were very much a part of TBM. (To use your terms.)

I'd almost say that all meditation is much the same - all brains and minds being much the same in construction - and TM is simply another in the long tradition of meditation.
 
Donn said:
Indeed, the aim was to acknowledge each thought (or intrusion) and to let it go without interaction.
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It other word, you are only the the level of thoughts process.

What you did is called Mindfulness meditation, which is
a technique adapted from Buddhist Vipassana meditation[1] by which one learns to be mindful, "the intentional, accepting and non-judgmental focus of one's attention on the emotions, thoughts and sensations occurring in the present moment"
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(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_meditation)
 
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Donn said:
Heading towards the levels beneath,
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Donn said:
we worked towards the state of mind where the thoughts were mere noise against a larger backdrop.
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As I'v said, only at the level of thoughts process. When you are at the invariant state, the mind is free of any "noise" (thoughts process).

Donn said:
but I'm not Enlightened. Are you?
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No, and I am not looking for it. If it comes naturally then welcome, that's all.
 
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doronshadmi said:
As I'v said, only at the level of thoughts process. When you are at the invariant state, the mind is free of any "noise" (thoughts process).
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I'm saying that TBM does include this invariant state, not that I personally reached it, but that TM is not unique in this idea.
 
doronshadmi said:
It other word, you are only the the level of thoughts process.

What you did is called Mindfulness meditation, which is
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_meditation)
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Doron wants to ignore the fact that I am a sidhi level TM initiate (a long story, to do with being a student, housing needs and the current Minister of Peace of the TM movement as my direct boss... I am in no way involved with the cult, but had the fortune to live amongst them in the Netherlands and do work at the MU in Fairfield Iowa. I know way more about TM and it´s organisation than Doron can ever pay for).

Doron, if your Guru does not tell you that your meditation techniques *stem* from Tibetan Buddhist Techniques then you are being taught by a fraud and you need to report him to the TM organisation.

The basic level of TM Meditation has no differences except for the special mantra (tell me your age at the moment of initiation and I can tell you your special mantra, ahem...).

At the level of Sidhi or Yogic Flyer things start to differ, but not before that and any true Guru *must* tell you this.

But again, Doron, *you* make the claim, so *you* need to provide the proof.

And stop trying to trick others into reductio ad absurdum.
 
Donn said:
I'm saying that TBM does include this invariant state, not that I personally reached it, but that TM is not unique in this idea.
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No TM teacher will say this. They will say the mantra is special and that the advanced Sidhi stages are special.

In fact, what you described was almost literally my initiate training. We rounded off with a white handkerchief, a flower and the ringing of a little bell.

The training consisted of watching hours and hours of Maharishi tapes (basically he says he lot 'It's a lawwwww offf naaaatuuurreee...hmmmm' and smiles), drinking nice herb tea, then meditating, then doing a questionaire.

A sidenote on that questionaire: the 'required' answers were obvious and one of them in fact was about not being annoyed that thoughts entered the mind.
I learned later that these questionnaires where being used as 'data' in research.
But the kicker is that if you did not answer correctly, you would need to pay for more lessons and people would pity you...
 
More several peer-reviewed papers about TM:

Impact of Transcendental Meditation® on cardiovascular function at rest and during acute stress in adolescents with high normal blood pressure (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022399901002616)

Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health: a before-after study (http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/25)

Comparison of coherence, amplitude, and eLORETA patterns during Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi practice (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167876011001851)

The Effect of Meditation on Self-Reported Measures of Stress, Anxiety, Depression, and Perfectionism in a College Population (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/87568225.2011.556947#.U_NnsaNc-So)
 
Donn said:
I'm saying that TBM does include this invariant state, not that I personally reached it, but that TM is not unique in this idea.
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I'll tell you more than that.

There are surly persons around the world that naturally aware of the calm aspect of their consciousness during their variant thoughts process, even if they did not practice TBM or TM even once.

The invariant AND the variant hold whether one is ware of it, or not.
 
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