Michael Brown Shooting

[Mike!]

I should add one more thing. There were injuries to Brown's face that Dr Baden said were likely caused post-mortem (or ante-mortem) when the last head shot killed him instantly and he dropped like a stone.

Meaning he wasn't yet on the ground, but his head was bent over when the top of his head was struck.

Unless one believes the far fetched charging like a bull scenario, Brown was getting down on the ground when he was killed.

You can excuse the officer as having shot so fast he didn't stop in time when Brown tried to surrender. Like I said, negligent excessive use of force. But this officer acted rashly, like a pissed off cop.

I don't see a calm, controlled scenario where Wilson felt threatened that would end with that top head shot.

I don't think there's a soul here who believes any of this took place in a "calm, controlled scenario" at all.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Autopsy: Relevant.

Marijuana in system: Not so much, unless you think "Reefer Madness" was a documentary.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And also consistent with a man who was charging, head downward, at someone or something with intent to tackle.

See: a football game.

Be my guest. You and LTC8K6 can stick with the most far-fetched version.

 

[LTC8K6]

A poster on another board is claiming that Baden said the two head shots were back to front at the presser this morning.

Has anyone heard or seen that anywhere?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You mean like Brown's face sliding on the ground?

There is now talk of a 4th autopsy.

I guess if they keep going they will get a good one they can use.

No, like a kill shot to the head instantly dropping a victim.

Not sure who is talking 4th autopsy and who "they" are, but the family is more than satisfied with the three

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I saw that but didn't realize it wasn't an official release of partial information about the 6-8 shots.

As for the pot, that's really going to make the department look bad given they already look bad for releasing the robbery video.

It isn't the police department's fault that this information exists. It's Michael Brown's life choices which make this information even something which can come out, in any manner... at any time. They are facts, and if they make Michael Brown look bad it's because he was bad.

Be my guest. Stick with the most far-fetched version.

Well, according to Cyril Wecht, falling forward as the final shots hit is the best, most likely explanation for the wound locations on the head. So we don't need to deal with silly far-fetched things like bull charges OR like surrenders.

 

[LTC8K6]

One down two to go, unless you think all the county examiner found was some pot and how many bullet holes there were.

Well, it's only the corrupt St Louis County ME anyway, right?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A poster on another board is claiming that Baden said the two head shots were back to front at the presser this morning.

Has anyone heard or seen that anywhere?

I watched the press conference. The two head shots were top down.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Autopsy: Relevant.

Marijuana in system: Not so much, unless you think "Reefer Madness" was a documentary.

Yeah, it's not like marijuana alters your brain at all.

 

[LTC8K6]

Be my guest. You and LTC8K6 can stick with the most far-fetched version.

Pardon me, but I think he charged head up.

I don't want to be lumped in with the riff-raff...

 

[Unabogie]

Wow, there's like 200 new posts from yesterday. One of the witnesses says that Darren Wilson, not Mike Brown, was the one "charging like a bull" (which is the meme of the day in Wingnutistan).

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art...hased_After_Michael_Brown_While_Shooting_Him/

I can clearly see that this will sway exactly no one, especially not our benighted True Skeptics, but this completely demolishes the idea that Wilson hung back and was attacked. He ran out of his car, shooting as he ran (which is insanely reckless) and shot Brown until he was dead. That's what happened. People were there. No one but the cop disputes this (if he even did, since police still have not released the incident report!). The autopsy (multiple autopsies) is completely consistent with this. There are multiple witnesses who all saw the same thing. The cops have reacted like the last thing in the world they want is an open airing of what transpired.

Now, will Darren Wilson pay for this? Nah, there are too many people who quite simply don't care all that much when a black kid gets killed.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yep. If drugs in your system is a justification for summary execution by cops, then I suppose it's officially open season on Wall Street.

I think only the True Believers^(tm) are still clinging to the "execution" story. Most everyone else has moved on.

 

[Mike!]

It isn't the police department's fault that this information exists. It's Michael Brown's life choices which make this information even something which can come out, in any manner... at any time. They are facts, and if they make Michael Brown look bad it's because he was bad.



Well, according to Cyril Wecht, falling forward as the final shots hit is the best, most likely explanation for the wound locations on the head. So we don't need to deal with silly far-fetched things like bull charges OR like surrenders.

Or just plain tripping while running in flip flops...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You might stumble while running without anyone shooting holes in you.
You might even duck if someone was shooting at you.

Walking that charging bull back now, are you?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I should add one more thing. There were injuries to Brown's face that Dr Baden said were likely caused post-mortem (or ante-mortem) when the last head shot killed him instantly and he dropped like a stone.

Meaning he wasn't yet on the ground, but his head was bent over when the top of his head was struck.

Unless one believes the far fetched charging like a bull scenario, Brown was getting down on the ground when he was killed.

You can excuse the officer as having shot so fast he didn't stop in time when Brown tried to surrender. Like I said, negligent excessive use of force. But this officer acted rashly, like a pissed off cop.

I don't see a calm, controlled scenario where Wilson felt threatened that would end with that top head shot.

Makes sense to me!

 

[LTC8K6]

Walking that charging bull back now, are you?

No, I'm on record with a head up charge from the get go.

I like to discuss all sorts of possibilities, that way I can always say "I knew it!" when one of them hits the mark.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You mean like Brown's face sliding on the ground?

There is now talk of a 4th autopsy.

I guess if they keep going they will get a good one they can use.

Yeah, the Baden autopsy kind of blew up in their face.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not clear on how you're determining that he has to have either been charging head down like a bull OR kneeling as a surrender.

How do you twist "getting down" into "kneeling"?

How have you ruled out falling forward? Another extremely well known ME (Cyril Wecht), on CNN just said falling forward was the most likely scenario for those wounds! Like 10 minutes ago. So I certainly don't see how you're seemingly ruling that out.

So are you also walking the charging bull back? Did Brown trip? None of the wounds besides the two in the head would have physically made Brown fall, at least that was my impression of what Baden said.

Lastly, would you not be pissed off if someone just unexpectedly and unprovoked attempted to murder you so they could avoid getting busted for stealing cigars?

Not worth a reply.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

<snip>He ran out of his car, shooting as he ran (which is insanely reckless) and shot Brown until he was dead. That's what happened. People were there.<snip>

Unless it isn't.

Someone suggested watching the videos on witness testimony and the reliability of memory from Elizabeth Loftus, and I took their advice. I went and watched her TED talk and a couple other talks from her on this, and it was highly relevant of course.

Mark O'Mara was discussing the same thing, and was backed up by Don Lemon on it on CNN a bit ago. Witness testimony tends to be about the worst thing available in an investigation.

I had been aware of everything Loftus talks about before, btw. I suspect you are too, but listening to her is a good refresher/reminder about how important this is to keep in mind.

Even just how people choose to refer to things can be a huge factor. "Got out of his car and just kept shooting until Brown was dead!" is an emotionally charged way of referring to something which may have been reasonable and entirely within normal police protocols. With a description like that, we could be talking about a range of very different events. As I say, the way someone chooses to frame and describe something can paint a very misleading picture of what really happened.

When you're talking about civilians who aren't familiar with use of force, who have never been in a situation like that, etc. you can easily end up with people pouring all sorts of ignorance and emotion and hindsight into what they say they saw, because they're upset about seeing someone get killed, and now seeing them lay dead in the street.

 

[Cylinder]

Makes sense to me!

Pretty much this. Any calm, controlled scenario where Wilson feels threatened and shoots Brown six times in a capital murder conviction. Putting aside defense of others - which doesn't really fit what's currently available regarding the officer narrative - Wilson must have actually believed he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury. I am waiting to see his narrative and the evidence of injury (though not required) to draw a conclusion about the most probable narrative of events.