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It would reveal what words were said, by who, and when. It would tell us the number of shots, how close together, and in what order things happened. It would confirm or deny details as given by witnesses, giving them more or less weight. It would tell us when the officer knew what, about how close he got his vehicle when he turned it around, and probably would help indicate who started attacking who and where they ended up.

Oh yea, I agree it would be nice to have and would give us some good info... but I just don't think it would completely settle the matter. I think there'd still be the same essential debate.

Heck, there'd be the same debate even if it showed the whole thing in full view. A lot of people just aren't ever going to agree with a cop shooting an unarmed person. I happen to believe that an unarmed teenager being shot and killed by a police officer or an armed citizen can absolutely be the right outcome in certain situations.
 
I thought the same thing during the OJ trial; even though the prosecution utterly botched its case, there really wasn't any doubt that he had done it. The jury, though, probably acquitted him for its own safety.

Peer pressure and one or more jurors who were easily convinced the police set OJ up.

As long as this was brought up: a detective who has handled hundreds of homicide cases said: when police a) do not recover the murder weapon, b) have no witnesses and c) the defendant makes no incriminating statements it can be very difficult to get the jury past reasonable doubt.
 
You mean the one shot that grazed the arm?

It's a graze. I think by definition that means it could have been from either direction, yes?

You don't even need an autopsy or a picture.

Just say it was a grazing wound and it pretty much means you can't tell by looking at it, which way it was going.

If either autopsy could confirm it was from the back, we'd have heard it was from the back.
NYT reports all shots from the front.
Dr Baden who did the autopsy says that report was mistaken and the one inner arm graze could have been from the front or the back.
Dr Baden also says at this point with just their physical exam they cannot say the position of the arms when hit. They would need the clothing, the X-rays, and the crime scene data like number of shots fired and from what distance.
Except the kill shot which went in from the top of the head, that said the head was down.

Now what in there do you think I got wrong?
 
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Well, Baden said it was the last shot.

It's beyond me how he can tell.

I presume, since he doesn't think any of the arm shots were fatal,or had any fatal fragments or ricochets, he is just going with the two head shots being last, and logically if you are falling forward, they would be in order.


I'm not sure how he can tell that exactly, but I can think of several ways to help narrow down the likely order without strict medical knowledge. What I've been doing is using my experience in martial arts, combat sports, and drawing people to do the simply body geometry for some basic (and therefore highly variable on more specific or additional evidence) likelihoods.

Unless the officer was at a higher elevation, significantly taller, holding the gun above his own head, having an automatic handgun putting all or most of the rounds into the air before any of the rounds stuck or gravity moved the mass towards the ground, or some combination thereof, the bullet going through the top of the head and leaving the body laying face down means that regardless of Brown being standing or on his knees then the injuries to his arm and chest would have had to occur before the one to the top of the head. The ground would have been between those other wounds and the shooter. Even if Brown was on his knees, hands in the air, in the process of laying on the ground when the shot struck on the top of the head the bullets would have all had to already be in the air to strike his arm and chest on the way down, and his arms wouldn't have ended where they did.

This of course could all change based on the actual specific entry angles and is speculation at best. I'm just illustrating that there are ways to fairly accurately figure out order of strike, even if one can't 'know' know.
 
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Smart guy.. Charging the family a 10k fee would not have went over well, considering the circumstances..

I'm sure he will make up for it as time goes on; new business, speaking engagements, expert witness fees, etc..
He's in his 80s. I don't think he's still out there building his fortune. He appeared to be doing it because he cares about justice.

As for the competency of being 80, he was clearly mentally competent in the press conference but he also employed the help of an assistant, Professor Parcells.

And it could have occurred during the original altercation in the vehicle.

It's not like misrepresentation is in short supply here...
The arm graze, yes, I said that. And no physical evidence of an altercation was found.

The only misrepresentation here is your claim of what I said.
 
NYT reports all shots from the front.
Dr Baden who did the autopsy says that report was mistaken and the one inner arm graze could have been from the front or the back.
Dr Baden also says at this point with just their physical exam they cannot say the position of the arms when hit. They would need the clothing, the X-rays, and the crime scene data like number of shots fired and from what distance.
Except the kill shot which went in from the top of the head, that said the head was down.

Now what in there do you think I got wrong?

I don't know.
 
Here's a CNN interview with Piaget Crenshaw who filmed the aftermath and saw the event from her balcony.

She says "From my point of view I couldn't tell exactly what was going on but it just looked as if he was tryin' to pull him, almost, into the car - and Brown being a bigger fella that didn't seem to have been working, and so of course he got away and that just seemed to have upset the officer. The officer got out and just started chasin' after the boy and I'm hearing shots fired, clearly none of them hit him but one I think did graze him as they said on the autopsy report, and at the end he just turned around after I'm guessing he felt the bullet graze his arm he turned around and then was shot multiple times."

She's giving this commentary on it after so much info has already come out. She's heard Dorian's version which had the "officer tried to pull Mike into the vehicle" and she's parroting that, she's incorporating the autopsy info and trying to make it fit in the way most favorable to Brown, etc.

With regard to this smaller officer trying to pull a 6'4" 293lb man into his cruiser through the window, no thinking person believes that was what the officer was doing. Keep in mind, anything relevant that was going on between them at that point would not have been very apparent to anyone other than Brown and the officer. From the perspective of people outside the vehicle, especially at a distance, they just see Brown leaning into the window and some sort of struggle happening. If they sympathize with Brown (especially with hindsight since he ends up dead shortly) they wish to interpret it as the exceptionally silly "Officer was trying to pull him through the window" but in reality, it seems much more likely, especially if the Officer has the documented and serious head injuries we're hearing about... that Brown leaned into the window to attack the officer and to try to get control of his weapon.

My guess would be that the officer tries to exit his vehicle to have a more proper and serious contact with the two suspects after hearing about the robbery and seeing them holding the box of cigarillos. As he tries to exit the vehicle, Brown isn't having it and shoves the door closed on him, possibly pinching the officer's arm and/or leg at this time, or possibly just pushing the officer back in somewhat. Police protocol would dictate at this time the officer should draw his weapon. Mike Brown then sees the officer drawing his weapon, and rather than doing the smart thing of apologizing for his violence and surrendering, making it clear to the officer he will present no further problem, he instead escalates the violence and leans through the window to attack the officer, and try to gain control of his gun. I have little doubt that if Brown had successfully gotten control of the gun, he would've shot the officer several times through the cruiser window, and then ran off.

So again, I consider the "trying to pull him through the window" thing to just be a silly attempt on the part of Johnson and others outside to make sense of what they were seeing in a way that fits their biases. Why would brown even be up next to the window in the first place if he and Johnson thought the encounter was over after the earlier contact, and the officer was trying to exit the vehicle? The officer wouldn't have beckoned him over to come right next to the door. I believe Brown came right over to the door to prevent the officer's exit, and to attack him.

As for what happened after the officer got out of the vehicle, now in full control of his weapon, and followed after Brown? Who knows. Things were happening very fast at that point, and people inclined to side with Brown watching from various distances may not have noticed something threatening he did.

Frankly, I don't really care what Brown did at that point. If it was a situation where he'd just attacked a police officer unprovoked, injured his face significantly, and tried to take his firearm... I have no problem at all with Wilson getting out and "executing" Brown. That is the expected result after trying to kill a police officer.

I think it's a result he could have avoided even then by halting, and completely complying - putting his hands up, making no further movement either away from or toward the officer, and kneeling, etc. I'm not sure how much in the way of orders Wilson was giving at that point, and how obvious Brown was making it that he wouldn't obey orders... but we've heard he may have at least said "freeze!" which sounds like he was still willing to spare Brown if Brown would comply.

Seems like Brown didn't comply, and/or did something threatening.

I'd be fine with it even if he'd unloaded into Brown's back. The man had just tried to kill a police officer. That makes him a credible threat to the community at large if allowed to escape, IMO.
 
One of the problems with pot is that you don't know what else has been mixed in. And blending is a common way to ingest other drugs on purpose. PCP and acid come to mind.

Can we infer from the THC leak that the tox labs are complete, or would rage inducing drugs take longer?
 
If I hold my hands up to surrender, and I get shot in the palm, I''ll have a through shot.

A circular hole in my palm.

I will not have what is drawn on the autopsy sheet.
The palm wound was described as "a very deep graze" by Dr Baden. Forensically they could not yet say the position of the hand when the bullet entered.

But the circular hole implies the only position of surrender is hands up perfectly angled to the cop. Hands can be up and slightly turned. Hand could be going up. Hands could be out as Brown tried to get on the ground. The last one is most likely given the head shot, and exactly what one of the witnesses said:
...2) Bullet in the top of Mike Brown’s head was "likely the last of bullets to hit him" illustrating his head was down which supports an eyewitness statement that

"when Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him"​
and another eyewitness who said

"Brown turned around with his hands in the air and said, 'I don't have a gun. Stop shooting!' The officer then shot Brown several more times, killing him"​
and another eyewitness who said

"As he runs the police get out of his vehicle and he follows behind him, shooting. And the kid's body jerked as if he was hit from behind, and he turns around and puts his hands up like this, and the cop continued to fire until he just dropped down to the ground and his face just smacks the concrete."​
3) Dr. Baden said the bullet entering the top of Michael Brown's head "likely the last of bullets to hit him" which also supports statements by eyewitnesses.
Brown’s skull, suggesting his head was bent forward when it struck him and caused a fatal injury, according to Dr. Michael M. Baden, the former chief medical examiner for the City of New York, who flew to Missouri on Sunday at the family’s request to conduct the separate autopsy. It was likely the last of bullets to hit him​
4) The autopsy suggests Michael Brown did not, I repeat, did not have control of Darren Wilson's gun because no gun shot residue was found anywhere on Brown's body and that includes Michael Brown's hands.
DR. BADEN: no gunpowder was present on his [Brown's] body.​
 
One of the problems with pot is that you don't know what else has been mixed in. And blending is a common way to ingest other drugs on purpose. PCP and acid come to mind.

Can we infer from the THC leak that the tox labs are complete, or would rage inducing drugs take longer?

Just saying, but LSD cannot be smoked. Heat like that destroys it.
 
Where are you getting this shot to the top of the head?


...and you took me to task for suggesting a shove at the throat area was a choking move, and accused me of confirmation bias..:rolleyes:
Try to keep up. We've been talking about the autopsy result released yesterday and discussed today at a press conference for the last couple pages here.

The kill shot was to the top of his head, per the autopsy.
 
Here's a CNN interview with Piaget Crenshaw who filmed the aftermath and saw the event from her balcony.

She says "From my point of view I couldn't tell exactly what was going on but it just looked as if he was tryin' to pull him, almost, into the car - ......


A theatrical trick used in fight scenes to pull on each other because it looks like you are pushing. It's another reason to have doubts about eye witnesses.
 
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