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Michael Brown Shooting

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johnny karate said:
Okay, perhaps you have the intellectual capacity to respond to this question with something more than a hilarious gif. Others in this thread don't seem able.
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Perhaps :scared:

johnny karate said:
How would Mitchell be impeached as a witness for the claim she made regarding seeing Brown's body jerk?
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All I am saying is that you appear to be dismissing what amounts to a de fcato claim that Mitchell appeared to see Brown was shot from behind:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/st-louis-official-reporters-arrested-ferguson-michael-brown
“The officer gets out of his vehicle,” Mitchell said, “and he pursues him,” continuing to shoot at Brown. “Michael’s body jerks as if he was hit,” Mitchell explained, “and then he put his hands up,” and the officer continued to shoot at Brown until the teenager collapsed “all the way down to the ground.”

I don't see anything contradictory in her statements, or similar that might impeach her claims. But ...

1) this is an internet forum, not a courtroom
2) we have not seen what she actually claimed in her statement(s) to the police

So, as far as I can tell, for all intents and purposes she claimed he was shot in the back. It appears he was not. What else did she misinterpret ?
 
newyorkguy said:
It could have been a flinch. He could've flinched at the sound of shots being fired.
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My thoughts exactly.

But others in this thread seem disturbingly eager to break out the ticker tape parade because "Ha ha the witness is wrong!" without actually considering whether or not the witness is wrong.
 
Distracted1 said:
With regards to the " disturbances in Ferguson " thread, the historical animosity between the police and African American community has a great deal of relavence.

Within the " shooting of Michael Brown " thread, not so much, maybe?
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Two different topics..which is why I created the distrubances thread.
 
johnny karate said:
But others in this thread seem disturbingly eager to break out the ticker tape parade because "Ha ha the witness is wrong!" without actually considering whether or not the witness is wrong.
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I said that there may have been shots from behind that missed (because no blood on the back of the shirt) but I speculate that that didn't actually happen.

I speculate that Wilson never shot at Brown when Brown was facing away from him. The autopsy shows that no bullets hit Brown from behind.
 
newyorkguy said:
I watched CNN and ABC News coverage of this event. Following this thread you don't get a sense of the outrage that exists over the shooting. Though these points are hotly debated here by a handful of posters, in the wider world there is a lot of concern over the following:

Brown was only eighteen. Six weeks ago he was still in high school. He had just graduated and was about to begin college. Brown was guilty of stealing a handful of cigars and bullying the shopkeeper. Many people don't consider that to be a violent felony or Brown to be a violent felon. Many people consider that stealing a handful of cigars and acting like a jerk. He got into an altercation with an officer. The details remain unclear. Despite being unarmed Brown was shot six times. Many people feel there should have been a way a trained and experienced police officer could've subdued him short of shooting him six times and killing him.

African Americans have a long history of being discriminated against and being subject to police violence. Many people feel he wouldn't have been shot six times and killed if he hadn't been black.
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There are many valid complaints on the actions of this police force, and of the treatment (past and present) of black people by many institutions in the US.

That doesn't make all the complaints valid, and invalid complaints should not be given deference because of other similar valid complaints. That Brown was unarmed is a nonsense complaint. One does not need to be armed to be a threat to life and limb. Many people think that is the case, but many people don't understand how fragile and resilient life is at the same time. The officer was already injured. He was injured by an unarmed man. There isn't a dispute there. I'm not going to make too much of Brown's physical size and strength because that's often overplayed. You don't have to be bigger and stronger to be a threat to someone's life and limb, and this is especially true if there was already a struggle for a gun. Yes, weapons are very effective at increasing the ability to kill and injure. For some odd reason people take this to mean that the lack of a weapon means 'safe' or a low ability to kill and injure. This simply isn't true. Similarly, people feeling that there should have been a way for the officer to subdue Brown without killing him doesn't mean that there was one, or even that there could have been one. At the point there was a struggle for the actual gun, switching to a Taser (if there was one) would have only been advisable if the firearm was actually lost. This is even without the injuries the officer had already sustained. There simply isn't time to switch safely during such an altercation without backup there to engage while the other switches.

Brown committed a violent felony. It's admitted by all the relevant parties and well evidenced on video. That some people don't consider him a violent felon isn't relevant to anything. Objecting to what his actions show and what is an accurate label would be like objecting to calling him a teenager, wouldn't it? It's kind of like the joke, "You have sex with women all your life, but you have sex with one goat and all of a sudden you're a goat-******." Yes, you commit one violent felony and you're a violent felon. You have an age that ends in 'teen' and you're a 'teenager'.

This is all from the 'us-versus-them' mentality where all the criticisms against one's own 'side' are viewed as invalid and against 'the other' side are valid. Even if one must take a side, that doesn't mean everything thrown at the other side has sound basis.
 
Distracted1 said:
With regards to the " disturbances in Ferguson " thread, the historical animosity between the police and African American community has a great deal of relavence. Within the " shooting of Michael Brown " thread, not so much, maybe?
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That's always been the problem. People will admit, "Yes, sure blacks have suffered police brutality." But when confronted with an example of it, many people always find a way to rationalize, "Just not in this case." Some people always want that perfect case. As a result nothing changes.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Or steal more cigars. :boxedin:
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Or choke anyone?

Grab2_zpse542cfea.jpg


Too bad the guy on the right wasn't armed..
 
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johnny karate said:
My thoughts exactly.

But others in this thread seem disturbingly eager to break out the ticker tape parade because "Ha ha the witness is wrong!" without actually considering whether or not the witness is wrong.
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Indeed. The idea that the witnesses might just be mistaken should not be dismissed at all. Perhaps they all did just lie to match what Johnson said, but perhaps the events simply appeared to show something else to them than what actually happened. It's possible that the all drew the same false conclusions from what they saw. That doesn't mean that the other things they thought the saw are less valid. Those have to be viewed on their own merits and skepticism that they always were because of the well known pitfalls of eyewitness. That doesn't mean to just dismiss it all.


LTC8K6 said:
Yeah, if your arms are raised, and I shoot you in the arm, does your arm stay up for the rest of the shots?
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If the shots were in quick order, yes.
 
newyorkguy said:
I watched CNN and ABC News coverage of this event. Following this thread you don't get a sense of the outrage that exists over the shooting. Though these points are hotly debated here by a handful of posters, in the wider world there is a lot of concern over the following:

Brown was only eighteen. Six weeks ago he was still in high school. He had just graduated and was about to begin college. Brown was guilty of stealing a handful of cigars and bullying the shopkeeper. Many people don't consider that to be a violent felony or Brown to be a violent felon. Many people consider that stealing a handful of cigars and acting like a jerk. He got into an altercation with an officer. The details remain unclear. Despite being unarmed Brown was shot six times. Many people feel there should have been a way a trained and experienced police officer could've subdued him short of shooting him six times and killing him.

African Americans have a long history of being discriminated against and being subject to police violence. Many people feel he wouldn't have been shot six times and killed if he hadn't been black.
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The arrogance and entitlement he displayed in that strong-armed robbery makes his crime even worse than a traditional stickup with a gun and skii mask, IMO. Calling him a "jerk" is an understatement. He was a lowlife scumbag. That's a fact. It's difficult for me to support a narrative that paints a man with such poor moral character as a "victim", when all you have in support are "witnesses" who we now know have been mistaken or lying about shots to the back, and may themselves be prejudiced toward white cops. Unless some very convincing forensic or testimonial evidence is presented to the contrary, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the smaller cop, who didn't confront Brown minutes after perpetrating a VIOLENT FELONY and who may have medical evidence that Brown physically assaulted him too.

At this point, no such evidence exists. The autopsy refuted two of the things that could have done Wilson in, that being gunshot wounds to his back and evidence of excessive force. Instead, they are all to his front, and four were poorly aimed (arguably all six were poorly aimed as cops are trained to hit center mass and none hit that area), indicating that Wilson was under extreme stress from the alleged prior assault by Brown when he began firing his weapon at a target that was advancing toward him. Further, there were only six shots, four of which were non-fatal. Cops are trained to neutralize a threatening target, and only the last two would have accomplished that goal. If he was charging at Wilson, the placement of the six shots would not be excessive.

And please stop with this nonsense about him being "unarmed". His size and fists are weapons. People are beaten to death with nothing but fists every year. Some people are killed with just one punch to the head. If the officer's medical report substantiates a physical assault perpetrated by Brown (and we have every reason to believe that it will), then Brown can not be called "unarmed".
 
In case it hasn't been pointed out already, the examiner has just clarified, one of the shots could have been from the back. It was the reporter from the NYTs that mistakenly said all the shots were from the front because they were confused about the diagram which is in anatomical position, not the position a person stands/runs/walks in.

In addition, the wound in the face was from the eyebrow down, came out of the eye, went back into the jaw. The trajectory is top down.

The chest wound is a reentry wound but it is not clear from this autopsy which arm wound was the initial entry.

The clothing and initial X-rays are needed to further define the position of the body when the bullets struck. But both head wounds are consistent with Brown's head being down.

From the medical examiner 'expert' on CNN, both head wounds in a 6'4'' man were top down. So unless you believe his head was down like a charging bull, (which he noted was far fetched in his opinion), Brown was either getting down or falling.

None of the arm wounds look like they would have made Brown collapse.
 
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newyorkguy said:
The other thing that bothers me is the reputation of the Ferguson Police Department. <snip> ...Ferguson police arrested the wrong man on a warrant search, beat him at the police station and then charged him with destroying government property after the officers discovered the man's blood had stained their uniforms. <snip> ...Prior to that he worked as a police officer in neighboring Jennings for two years until it was disbanded because they got caught stealing grant money. <snip> It sounds to me like there might be a real problem with local police ethics in St. Louis County...there are plenty of local people who say there is.
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The Central Scrutinizer said:
Okay, sure. Whatever.
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I would also argue that this is astonishing, that someone would apparently have no concerns whatsoever with systemic police misconduct in the county in which they live. I would argue that is the worst kind of apathy.
 
newyorkguy said:
...Despite being unarmed ...
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Again ...
Malcolm Kirkpatrick said:
How is "unarmed" relevant? NOT "unarmed" = "harmless" if the assailant outweighs the assaulted by 100 lbs.
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newyorkguy said:
... Brown was shot six times. Many people feel there should have been a way a trained and experienced police officer could've subdued him short of shooting him six times and killing him.
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Many people claim to believe in psychic surgery and the power of prayer. Thoughts and feelings are invisible mental events. I've heard of public opinion pollsters. In New York guy JREF has a public opinion telepath. Many people claim to believe in UFOs. Many people claim to believe that the Koran is Allah's revealed word. Many people can't add fractions.
Just how does a 150 pound male subdue a 290 pound male non-violently? Does a uniform somehow confer the strength of three men? Please elaborate.
newyorkguy said:
...African Americans have a long history of being discriminated against and being subject to police violence. Many people feel he wouldn't have been shot six times and killed if he hadn't been black.
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Nursing a historical grievance and taking it out on a random cop will get you shot.

Many people say telepathy is hogwash. I'm with them.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Or choke anyone?

[qimg]http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/abitofmystuff/Grab2_zpse542cfea.jpg[/qimg]..
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So in the actual video a quick shove where the contact lasted less than a second and store clerk stumbles back as would happen if he's been shoved becomes Brown choking the clerk in your mind when you blow the still image up to fuzzy proportions?

I suppose you don't see any confirmation bias there? :rolleyes:
 
Ammonitida said:
<snip> He was a lowlife scumbag. <snip>
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You can say that if you want. One poster here suggested Officer Wilson performed a community service by killing Brown. These types of events always attract those kinds of comments. Watch the news coverage. Read a paper. Your extreme views only represent the feelings of a tiny minority.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So in the actual video a quick shove where the contact lasted less than a second and store clerk stumbles back as would happen if he's been shoved becomes Brown choking the clerk in your mind when you blow the still image up to fuzzy proportions?

I suppose you don't see any confirmation bias there? :rolleyes:
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