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Michael Brown Shooting

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Cain said:
That makes sense.





NYT's commenters are outraged that six shots hit Brown, calling it "excessive," and, "a one man firing squad." But he can only shoot as long as Brown's up. It's not as though he waltzed over to the corpse, changed magazines, and then kept firing until he he heard a click.
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Absent the clip being changed there is one person who claimed something like that happened. This is an interesting video as it was originally published on the 10th but the information regarding the cigarillos and Ferguson Market didn't hit the established media sources until the 15th. I've difficulty following him here, but the story is very strange and sounds something like what you posted. He obviously knew things others didn't, he knew it was the Ferguson Market and not the Quik Trip, but his story is damned odd.


Wasn't Johnson apprehended at the scene?
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He ran off and was not interviewed by police for a while. Note that article may contain an error and he could have been interviewed by the FBI and/or one of the police organizations by that time. As I understand it there's at least three different law enforcement organizations involved in the investigation: FBI, St. Louis Co and Ferguson police. I've also seen reference to a DOJ probe which may not have been the FBI.

Why did the officer spare his life? So far it seems like the evidence is consistent with Brown adopting an aggressive posture.
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I didn't realize the autopsy had been released when I posted to you last and have only had a chance to read the NYT article once, it seems to rule out a shot entering from his back and those arm wounds and the nature of them ought to indicate he didn't have his hands up, but they could have been outstretched in front of him which amounts to the same thing, doesn't it? It also could mean something else....
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Translation, you're not willing to commit, blood on the shirt, arms down, no shirt blood, arms raised in surrender?
I get it, no matter what actually happened, the officer did no wrong.
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To be perfectly honest, I don't think I'm following you on this issue. Perhaps you and/or someone else can help me understand the issue you're getting at.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I think it's pretty simple. Brown is charging towards Wilson, head up. Wilson begins to fire at center mass, but is missing left. Early shots have little effect. The shots begin to have an effect and Brown falls. Wilson is still firing. The last two shots enter the face and head at the "downward" angle as Brown is falling.

The front of Brown's shirt is likely completely soaked with blood and will reveal no helpful splatter.
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In your scenario, four wounds in one arm causes Brown to fall. And just how did that happen? Are you picturing Brown bleeding out? I don't see any arm wounds that suggest bleeding out followed.

You admit the final two head shots are with Brown's head at a downward angle.

So, what are you going to say if the shirt is not "soaked"?

I'm more than willing to take that challenge. A soaked-in-blood-from-the-arm shirt, Brown's arms were down when he was shot.
 
dudalb said:
The Governor just ordered in the National Guard.

I thought it was going in this direction,surprised it came so quickly.
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The cowardly gangsters in the area found out the police were taking a mostly passive approach and they could hide among the protesters, so they came in to cause trouble, which is really what they do on a daily basis anyway. The police are going to have to clear the streets to restore order, IMO, which is probably why the National Guard is being called in. I'm not sure putting soldiers on the mean streets of Ferguson is the right thing to do, but we'll just have to wait and see. There really aren't too many options here.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
In your scenario, four wounds in one arm causes Brown to fall. And just how did that happen? Are you picturing Brown bleeding out? I don't see any arm wounds that suggest bleeding out followed.

You admit the final two head shots are with Brown's head at a downward angle.

So, what are you going to say if the shirt is not "soaked"?

I'm more than willing to take that challenge. A soaked-in-blood-from-the-arm shirt, Brown's arms were down when he was shot.
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I think the nipple wound probably caused Brown to fall. A bullet or fragment reached the heart?
 
Ammonitida said:
I believe that I was wrong about the "charging bull" with his head down. More likely, he was shot in the eye first and then as he was falling, another shot hit the top of his head. This argues against an "execution" style murder, as claimed by one of the witnesses. On the contrary, it suggests that Wilson was still firing rapidly while aiming at center mass when he "scored" the two head shots, one in the eye and one catching him in a fall. The rapid succession of these shot indicates that Wilson still believed that Brown was a threat. Further, the downward trajectory of the eye shot could just be the result of ricochet with the bones. This was argued in the Jodi Arias, and the medical examiner agreed with the defense that it was likely.
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And the eye shot then traveling down to the jaw and collar bone happened with a right angle turn of the bullet? What position was the right arm in, given those four shots happened before Brown was falling down?

Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is before the results are in.
 
Kaosium said:
As I understand it there's at least three different law enforcement organizations involved in the investigation: FBI, St. Louis Co and Ferguson police. I've also seen reference to a DOJ probe which may not have been the FBI.
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So much money spent to verify what everyone should've known from minute 1: violent thug felon attacked officer, got justifiably killed in the process.

Only winner here is the media.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I think the nipple wound probably caused Brown to fall. A bullet or fragment reached the heart?
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Also could've fallen due to loss of balance/shock of being shot multiple times. Even for a big guy like that, sustaining multiple bullet wounds in a short period of time is going to be the sort of trauma which in and of itself could explain falling forward, especially if he'd built up a lot of momentum with the intent of charging the officer, but now is having to adjust to a very different situation where he's being hit with a lot of counter-force, his body is sustaining a lot of powerful shock, etc.

Not hard at all to believe he'd fall for any number of reasons under those conditions, and effectively fall head first into the path of the last couple bullets the officer squeezed off.
 
jhunter1163 said:
I think that at this point, it's too soon to say with any certainty whether Brown had his arms up or not. There are points during the natural arm swing of running when the inner arm would be exposed to someone shooting from the front; of course, raising one's hands in surrender would similarly expose the inner arms. Until a more thorough autopsy is done and the angle of entry of the arm wounds can be established, it is premature to speculate (though that won't stop people from speculating).
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But my question was, if there is no blood on the shirt, are you willing to admit the arms were likely up not down? Even with Brown's arms out from the body there would be spatter on the shirt.

I'm willing to base arms up or down on the blood evidence on the shirt. I have nothing against cops. They have a tough job. I think this cop made serious mistakes. The fact he killed an unarmed kid is evidence of that.

But stupid mistake vs serious negligence, that is dependent on the autopsy report showing Brown's arms being raised or not. The eye witness accounts suggest 'raised'. The physical evidence has more weight than more fallible eye-witness accounts. That evidence is still pending.
 
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Skeptic Tank said:
And another is just being a dimwitted, impulsive, thoughtless criminal.
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Who couldn't have gotten away with that sort of behavior very long, doing that on camera is basically busting himself. His life of crime would have been ridiculously short had he not been shot, which is why that behavior puzzles me still.

Much more common than a lot of people seem to realize. There are a lot of people in the world who, if they are irritated in the slightest, are instantly swinging a fist. If they see something they want, they grab for it.
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The latter is obvious, the former is not my experience even in neighborhoods like that one in Ferguson.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
But my question was, if there is no blood on the shirt, are you willing to admit the arms were likely up not down? Even with Brown's arms out from the body there would be spatter on the shirt.

I'm willing to base arms up or down on the blood evidence on the shirt. I have nothing against cops. They have a tough job. I think this cop made serious mistakes. The fact he killed an unarmed kid is evidence of that.

But stupid mistake vs serious negligence, that is dependent on the autopsy report showing Brown's arms being raised or not. The eye witness accounts suggest 'raised'. The physical evidence has more weight than more fallible eye-witness accounts. That evidence is still pending.
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Have you seen the pic of the body on the ground?

There's a lot of blood.

I would think it has to be on the shirt.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
To be perfectly honest, I don't think I'm following you on this issue. Perhaps you and/or someone else can help me understand the issue you're getting at.
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Oh I don't think it's that hard to understand.

You want to preserve your narrative regardless of the autopsy evidence. You are unwilling to say ahead of time what autopsy evidence would change your mind. Instead you wait for the evidence to give yourself time to fit that evidence into you pre-existing narrative.
 
jhunter1163 said:
I think that at this point, it's too soon to say with any certainty whether Brown had his arms up or not. There are points during the natural arm swing of running when the inner arm would be exposed to someone shooting from the front; of course, raising one's hands in surrender would similarly expose the inner arms. Until a more thorough autopsy is done and the angle of entry of the arm wounds can be established, it is premature to speculate (though that won't stop people from speculating).
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The arms out, like at eye level, amounts to the same thing as a surrender gesture, doesn't it?
 
LTC8K6 said:
I don't see how, with the chest wound, that there wouldn't be blood on the shirt.
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"Blood on the shirt" ≠ blood spatter on the shirt consistent with the arms being down when the arm wounds occurred.

I'm pretty sure blood spatter evidence is more specific than just "blood on the shirt."

Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is. What blood spatter evidence would tell you Brown's arms were raised when at least three of those wounds occurred (allowing for one wound through the car window)?

I'm willing to accept blood spatter evidence the arms were down when the bullets hit Brown's arm if that's what is found.
 
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Everybody who said Brown was shot in the back is dismissed from the thread. Who's left?
 
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