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Michael Brown Shooting

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Skeptic Ginger said:
So which is more likely? Brown was charging from 30 feet away with his head already down like a charging bull? Or, Brown's arms were up and he was moving to lie on the ground as a surrendering man would move?
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I'd say the most likely scenario is probably that the officer just aimed at Brown, not any specific part of Brown's body, and fired all those shots in very rapid succession *pop-pop-pop-pop-pop* with very little, if anything, in the way of reassessment of Brown between shots because of how rapid it all was.

In other words, early shots in the burst are hitting arm and chest, then Brown begins to go down due to those hits, and his head essentially falls into the path of already inbound bullets.
 
marplots said:
The problem is in lumping aggression into some tidy bundle. It is possible that Brown was the sort of fellow who always acted aggressively when confronted. But it's just as likely that the store incident was unusual for him.

I can't simply assume that pushing a store clerk equates to attacking a police officer - those dots are too far apart to connect without some healthy doubt. I'd like to hear what the cop has to say and what injuries he suffered.

And, if Brown "went off" it's still strange. How did he get to be 18 without something already in the books? After all, he didn't become a large guy overnight. It's odd. And when things are odd, we ought to step back a bit and see what else we can find out.
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One indication of what might have come before is when his parents/lawyer(s) speaking on their behalf said something about Mike having had his troubles but he was coming around. There's some gossip going around as to what that might mean and whatever it is might come up in the near future.

Was it you that used the term 'bully' regarding his actions in the store? I had been thinking the same thing. He acted like the biggest kid taking what he wanted and cowing the person he took it from, but he was (probably) capable of really doing some damage if he wanted to, but did not. Not as much a 'violent thug' as a playground bully used to getting what he wanted. He'd have learned in short order that doesn't cut it in the grown-up world for almost everyone, but he'll never get the chance.

That whole encounter in the Ferguson Market puzzles me, whatever gave him the impression he could get away with that? He must have known they have cameras, he grew up in a world where they're everywhere, unlike most of us. I've tried to come up with explanations for that behavior, above is one of them, drugs is another. Thinking he'd never go back because he was going off to school and they wouldn't bother to track him down for $50 of cigars is also plausible, though I don't know if he was actually leaving home for school or not.
 
Cain said:
Wasn't Johnson apprehended at the scene? Why did the officer spare his life? So far it seems like the evidence is consistent with Brown adopting an aggressive posture.
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An excellent point. If Wilson was really Mr. Racist McMurderPants like people want us to think, why did Dorian Johnson sustain nary a single bullet wound, or even get fired at?

Wasn't he ever bit as black as Michael Brown, and every bit as disrespectful to the officer?

As you say... the obvious conclusion is that Brown was shot because of things he was doing. And continued to be shot as long as he was doing those things.

Not definitive by any means, but yet another thing on the pile.
 
Kaosium said:
<SNIP>whatever gave him the impression he could get away with that? He must have known they have cameras, he grew up in a world where they're everywhere, unlike most of us. I've tried to come up with explanations for that behavior, above is one of them, drugs is another. Thinking he'd never go back because he was going off to school and they wouldn't bother to track him down for $50 of cigars is also plausible, though I don't know if he was actually leaving home for school or not.
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And another is just being a dimwitted, impulsive, thoughtless criminal.

Much more common than a lot of people seem to realize. There are a lot of people in the world who, if they are irritated in the slightest, are instantly swinging a fist. If they see something they want, they grab for it.
 
Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds.
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Baden specifically said some bullets made several wounds.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Or not, read on.

"For no reason" is a straw man.

Bull rushing with his head down? From 30 feet away? Or getting on the ground while surrendering?

You run with your palms out, facing forward? That is one big 'please fit my scenario' stretch.

And this means what exactly?

The report was four shots to the arm. I think we can say the examiner was not suggesting any of the arm wounds were the result of one shot making more than one of those wounds.

Ask yourself another question. If the first four shots hit the arm, and the chest wound was or was not a reentry wound from one of the arm wounds, none of those shots would have taken Brown down. Do you agree with that much?

Now consider the eye entry wound that went down toward the jaw and collar bone, and the final head shot reportedly at an entry angle with the head down. Both of those wounds easily could have caused Brown to go down. Both of those shots suggest Brown's head was down, the last head shot for sure, but even the eye shot bullet trajectory was downward.

Can bullets make right angle turns? Maybe. But it is also consistent both head shots were when Brown's head was down or moving down.

So which is more likely? Brown was charging from 30 feet away with his head already down like a charging bull? Or, Brown's arms were up and he was moving to lie on the ground as a surrendering man would move?

I'm willing to wait for the more definitive information from the autopsies, such as the blood pattern on Brown's shirt.

Are the rest of you? Put it out here now, if there are no blood spatters on Brown's shirt that correlate with the arm wounds, is that consistent with his arms raised or not?
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I think it's pretty simple. Brown is charging towards Wilson, head up. Wilson begins to fire at center mass, but is missing left. Early shots have little effect. The shots begin to have an effect and Brown falls. Wilson is still firing. The last two shots enter the face and head at the "downward" angle as Brown is falling.

The front of Brown's shirt is likely completely soaked with blood and will reveal no helpful splatter.
 
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The Governor just ordered in the National Guard.

I thought it was going in this direction,surprised it came so quickly.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Or not, read on.

"For no reason" is a straw man.

Bull rushing with his head down? From 30 feet away? Or getting on the ground while surrendering?

You run with your palms out, facing forward? That is one big 'please fit my scenario' stretch.

And this means what exactly?

The report was four shots to the arm. I think we can say the examiner was not suggesting any of the arm wounds were the result of one shot making more than one of those wounds.

Ask yourself another question. If the first four shots hit the arm, and the chest wound was or was not a reentry wound from one of the arm wounds, none of those shots would have taken Brown down. Do you agree with that much?

Now consider the eye entry wound that went down toward the jaw and collar bone, and the final head shot reportedly at an entry angle with the head down. Both of those wounds easily could have caused Brown to go down. Both of those shots suggest Brown's head was down, the last head shot for sure, but even the eye shot bullet trajectory was downward.

Can bullets make right angle turns? Maybe. But it is also consistent both head shots were when Brown's head was down or moving down.

So which is more likely? Brown was charging from 30 feet away with his head already down like a charging bull? Or, Brown's arms were up and he was moving to lie on the ground as a surrendering man would move?

I'm willing to wait for the more definitive information from the autopsies, such as the blood pattern on Brown's shirt.

Are the rest of you? Put it out here now, if there are no blood spatters on Brown's shirt that correlate with the arm wounds, is that consistent with his arms raised or not?
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I believe that I was wrong about the "charging bull" with his head down. More likely, he was shot in the eye first and then as he was falling, another shot hit the top of his head. This argues against an "execution" style murder, as claimed by one of the witnesses. On the contrary, it suggests that Wilson was still firing rapidly while aiming at center mass when he "scored" the two head shots, one in the eye and one catching him in a fall. The rapid succession of these shot indicates that Wilson still believed that Brown was a threat. Further, the downward trajectory of the eye shot could just be the result of ricochet with the bones. This was argued in the Jodi Arias, and the medical examiner agreed with the defense that it was likely.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Or not, read on..... <snip>
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I think that at this point, it's too soon to say with any certainty whether Brown had his arms up or not. There are points during the natural arm swing of running when the inner arm would be exposed to someone shooting from the front; of course, raising one's hands in surrender would similarly expose the inner arms. Until a more thorough autopsy is done and the angle of entry of the arm wounds can be established, it is premature to speculate (though that won't stop people from speculating).
 
There's also the possibility that as he reacted to shots hitting him, that reaction involved the arm presenting differently toward the officer.

Envision someone stumbling backward but not losing their footing, like they've just been hit by a wave of force. That could easily make the interior of the arm available for subsequent shots.

Lots of possibilities.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
I'd say the most likely scenario is probably that the officer just aimed at Brown, not any specific part of Brown's body, and fired all those shots in very rapid succession *pop-pop-pop-pop-pop* with very little, if anything, in the way of reassessment of Brown between shots because of how rapid it all was.

In other words, early shots in the burst are hitting arm and chest, then Brown begins to go down due to those hits, and his head essentially falls into the path of already inbound bullets.
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Translation, you're not willing to commit, blood on the shirt, arms down, no shirt blood, arms raised in surrender?

I get it, no matter what actually happened, the officer did no wrong.
 
Following coordinated attacks on civilians and law enforcement, Governor Nixon signs executive order directing Missouri National Guard resources to Ferguson

Jefferson City, MO- Executive Order 14-09

Gov. Jay Nixon has signed an executive order directing additional resources through the Missouri National Guard to help restore peace and order and to protect the citizens of Ferguson.

“Tonight, a day of hope, prayers, and peaceful protests was marred by the violent criminal acts of an organized and growing number of individuals, many from outside the community and state, whose actions are putting the residents and businesses of Ferguson at risk. I join the people of Ferguson, and all Missourians, in strongly condemning this criminal activity that included firing upon law enforcement officers, shooting a civilian, throwing Molotov cocktails, looting, and a coordinated attempt to block roads and overrun the Unified Command Center. These violent acts are a disservice to the family of Michael Brown and his memory, and to the people of this community who yearn for justice to be served, and to feel safe in their own homes. Given these deliberate, coordinated and intensifying violent attacks on lives and property in Ferguson, I am directing the highly capable men and women of the Missouri National Guard to assist Colonel Ron Replogle and the Unified Command in restoring peace and order to this community.”
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LTC8K6 said:
Baden specifically said some bullets made several wounds.
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Right, and the report also says four entry wounds in the arm and two in the head, six shots total.

That leaves the jaw and collar bone injuries as well as the lateral chest entry wounds as secondary entry/exit wounds.
 
Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.
 
jhunter1163 said:
I think that at this point, it's too soon to say with any certainty whether Brown had his arms up or not. There are points during the natural arm swing of running when the inner arm would be exposed to someone shooting from the front; of course, raising one's hands in surrender would similarly expose the inner arms. Until a more thorough autopsy is done and the angle of entry of the arm wounds can be established, it is premature to speculate (though that won't stop people from speculating).
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The drawing does not indicate that the inner arm was facing the officer, though.

It's just the best approximation of a 3D location on a 2D drawing.
 
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