Michael Brown Shooting

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I thought you said you weren't taking sides?

I'm not. You'll notice I was congratulating the brilliant takedown of someone stating that something must be true if enough people witness it.

 

[rwguinn]

I'm not. You'll notice I was congratulating the brilliant takedown of someone stating that something must be true if enough people witness it.

Stick to your guns Scrut (I can't believe I, of all people, am saying that to Scrut!)
There's a lot of appeal to emotions going on here. I need to see the medical on the cop and the autopsy results to form anything more than a "Maybe" opinion...

 

[casebro]

The only thing we've heard that could be considered "evidence" is the Chief relating some details from Wilson's sworn report. EVERYTHING in the news, twitter, facebook, is just gossip.

I suppose the PD has some actual, bona fide, sworn statements the supersede the level of gossip. Probably from both sides. But sniping at each other over the truthfulness of the other sides gossip is childish.

I only wonder how much of what will be presented to the grand jury will ever be made public.

 

[Elagabalus]

Not quite the end of the story, sorry.

Put yourself in Officer Wilson's shoes. We don't know for a certainty if he knew Brown and Johnson were the robbers, if he merely suspected they might be, or if he was entirely unaware of the robbery. It seems like that information is still being hashed out and we're getting mixed messages on it. But if he wasn't aware, Brown's reaction to a mere jaywalking stop would've seemed even more bizarre and made him seem even less predictable... furthermore:

You're Officer Wilson, this guy just physically attacked you in your own cruiser and tried to get ahold of your gun in the process. You've never had a perp do anything so brazen and unpredictably violent and volatile before. From your perspective, while you are injured and terrified, do you believe Brown has made an attempt on your life? Yes or no?

Do you know for a fact he's unarmed simply because he hasn't produced a firearm or other weapon of his own thus far?

Do you know for a fact his friend isn't armed with a pistol, and taking aim at you right now from another direction?

Just imagine the terror of a situation like that. Someone has beaten you about the head and nearly got control of your service pistol. As far as you're concerned, you just barely prevented your own demise... there are still two perps, you don't know if they're armed, and you certainly don't consider the situation neutralized yet.

And based on what you do next, millions may be ready to bury you under the prison.

Seem fair?

I'm going to need to see something pretty damning before I grab my pitchfork and join the mob.

Ok, I agree with most of what you said.

But let's look at from Brown's point of view.

Officer Wilson is holding on to you (we'll leave off about how this struggle began for a moment) and you are trying to break free. Next, officer Wilson tells you that he is going to shoot you and takes out his sidearm.

You are scared.

While you would like to stop struggling and comply you are not entirely sure (given the reputation of the Ferguson Police Department) that this cop will not shoot you anyway once you stop resisting. So in you fear you instinctively grab at his gun hand, not to take away the gun, but to prevent officer Wilson from aiming at you.

The gun discharges startling both you and Officer Wilson and adding another surge of adrenalin coursing through your veins. It's fight or flight time. You've already had the fight so now it's flight. You don't want to run away from the scene you just want to get behind a car or object so Officer Wilson doesn't shoot you in a rage because he is full of adrenalin too. Get him to calm down a bit and then you can surrender.

How many shots would be justified from Wilson? And I agree that some shots would be justified having just struggled with Brown. But how many? How many shots would be considered excessive?

 

[newyorkguy]

Before we lynch this cop and destroy his life even more than it's already destroyed, it will require a video surfacing, or something very damning and very conclusive in the physical evidence which isn't compatible with any justifiable scenario.

Sound like a tall order? <snip>

Why would a cop be entitled to a greater threshold of evidence than anyone else? In most criminal cases multiple eyewitnesses, with no connection to one another, all telling basically the same story is usually good enough. We know Wilson shot Brown, that isn't in dispute. Physical evidence? I would guess the physical evidence will be consistent with the eyewitness accounts. The St. Louis County police chief has already stated Brown's body was 35 feet from the police vehicle. That there were four or five shell casings recovered. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I am willing to wait and see, too. I realize there can be facts brought to light that will change the way this case appears. But I know police violence is a problem and I know far too often black men have borne the brunt of it. So as I stated pages ago, I have some very serious concerns about this incident and the Ferguson Police Department. I have friends and a relative who are police officers and I have supported the police in many threads even when it was not popular. In this case I see a problem.

 

[dudalb]

Wow, that's pretty obvious evidence of trigger happy police. Or is it?

This does elucidate a point; why the heck don't the police cars in Ferguson have dash-cams? They would go a long way towards clearing up many of the issues in this case.

You expect the Ferguson Police Department leadership to get ANYTHING right?????

 

[Cylinder]

I only wonder how much of what will be presented to the grand jury will ever be made public.

There's a lot of political agendas here but my take is that either Wilson is charged or indicted thus the evidence becomes public at trial (and probably earlier) or he is no-billed where the government will come under tremendous pressure to explain exactly how that happened.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The only thing we've heard that could be considered "evidence" is the Chief relating some details from Wilson's sworn report. EVERYTHING in the news, twitter, facebook, is just gossip.
...

Why is the chief's second hand account evidence while three eye witnesses that have given their own accounts, not?

 

[dudalb]

The temptation to form premature theories upon insufficient data is the bane of our profession

Sherlock Holmes.

Though I would replace bane of all profession with bane to rational thinking.

 

[dudalb]

There's a lot of political agendas here but my take is that either Wilson is charged or indicted thus the evidence becomes public at trial (and probably earlier) or he is no-billed where the government will come under tremendous pressure to explain exactly how that happened.

Let's be brutally honest:He will be indicted out of fear of what would happen if he was not. Which is not to say he should not be indicted but anybody thinking that what the reaction would be if he was not is not going to play a big role is naïve.

Question is what will he be indicted for? I suspect Manslaughter is the highest they can go for realistically.

One thing is sure: The Ferguson Police department has just about the worst relationship with it's citizens I have seen.
I don't believe in quotas,but ina city 60% black with only 3 officers out of 53 are black means something is very wrong.

 

[newyorkguy]

Stick to your guns Scrut...

Poor choice of words!

The only thing we've heard that could be considered "evidence" is the Chief relating some details from Wilson's sworn report. EVERYTHING in the news, twitter, facebook, is just gossip. <snip>

The problem is, all I can find is what the police chief from St. Louis County said:

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Jon Belmar, chief of the St. Louis County Police Department, said at a Sunday news conference. The officer tried to leave his vehicle just before the shooting on Saturday afternoon, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said. A shot was fired inside the police car, and Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle, Belmar said, adding few details because he didn't want to "prejudice" the case.

I do have a concern that the autopsy has been performed and yet the police are still not releasing the basic information on this shooting that is normally released almost immediately. Namely, the number of wounds suffered by the deceased and the location of those wounds. I'm not going to speculate on why they are not releasing information that they have certainly had for days -- it's been eight days -- but my gut is telling me there is a problem here and the police know it.

I will say this, Brown's companion alleged that Brown was shot in the back. If he made that up it was a very foolish thing to do because it will be very easy to prove or disprove. Very easy.

 

[marplots]

Why would a cop be entitled to a greater threshold of evidence than anyone else? In most criminal cases multiple eyewitnesses, with no connection to one another, all telling basically the same story is usually good enough. We know Wilson shot Brown, that isn't in dispute. Physical evidence? I would guess the physical evidence will be consistent with the eyewitness accounts. The St. Louis County police chief has already stated Brown's body was 35 feet from the police vehicle. That there were four or five shell casings recovered. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The cop gets the benefit of the doubt because he represents me. We hire him, train him up, give him a gun and expect him to go out there and protect our interests. He might be a bad cop with his own motivations, but starting out, he is doing whatever he is doing, not for personal reasons or self-interest, but because I pay him to do it.

That gets at one of the legs of the means-opportunity-motivation bit. Our default should be the cop as a neutral actor. Sadly, this is not how police officers are always viewed, and I can't say that that too is without reason.

 

[newyorkguy]

The cop gets the benefit of the doubt because he represents me. <snip>

That's not true. That may be your opinion but can you cite that written in law anywhere? As a matter of fact, as police have pointed out, they are actually held to a higher standard based on training and professionalism. In many cases where a shooter has gotten off on Stand Your Ground laws police officers would not have been permitted to fire. If they had they would've faced charges.

 

[casebro]

Let's be brutally honest:He will be indicted out of fear of what would happen if he was not.

.....

That was Zimmerman, who was not indicted by a grand jury by by a politically appointed "special prosecutor". And O.J, who was probably found innocent exactly like you say..

Wilson's grand jury does not answer to any politicos, only their own conscious.

My own model is that they have witnesses who swear to the charging, an autopsy that call the other claims in to lies, and a "no bill" grand jury finding will be less likely to suffer the claims as a white wash than if the prosecutor merely declines to prosecute.

Question- does a grand jury come under double jeopardy clause? If the finding is 'no bill' can somebody like Rev Al get a special prosecutor involved, and try for a trail? Or will the 'no bill' end it? I'm sure new evidence can re-open, but otherwise?

 

[Brainster]

Poor choice of words!



The problem is, all I can find is what the police chief from St. Louis County said:


I do have a concern that the autopsy has been performed and yet the police are still not releasing the basic information on this shooting that is normally released almost immediately. Namely, the number of wounds suffered by the deceased and the location of those wounds. I'm not going to speculate on why they are not releasing information that they have certainly had for days -- it's been eight days -- but my gut is telling me there is a problem here and the police know it.

This is a good point. I am not sure how immediately this info is normally released, but it would seem obvious that it should be quickly released. It will be interesting to see how soon the Brown family's autopsy (and Obama's) are released as well.

 

[Distracted1]

Why would a cop be entitled to a greater threshold of evidence than anyone else? In most criminal cases multiple eyewitnesses, with no connection to one another, all telling basically the same story is usually good enough. We know Wilson shot Brown, that isn't in dispute. Physical evidence? I would guess the physical evidence will be consistent with the eyewitness accounts. The St. Louis County police chief has already stated Brown's body was 35 feet from the police vehicle. That there were four or five shell casings recovered. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I am willing to wait and see, too. I realize there can be facts brought to light that will change the way this case appears. But I know police violence is a problem and I know far too often black men have borne the brunt of it. So as I stated pages ago, I have some very serious concerns about this incident and the Ferguson Police Department. I have friends and a relative who are police officers and I have supported the police in many threads even when it was not popular. In this case I see a problem.

The recording in which the man is overheard describing a situation in which Mr. Brown turned and began moving back towards the officer also includes multiple people claiming that Mr. Brown had his hands up and was essentially gunned down.

I am curious as to how long after the incident this recording was made. Had the police had a chance to interview the witnesses yet? If they had not, it is not surprising that that they got stories that somewhat jibed with each other. Claims that Mr. Brown was gunned down while surrendering were being shouted around the area, difficult to use the general agreement of the witness statements to demonstrate that they are without bias, when the story was being shouted around like that.

In fact, it lends credence to the story being related off-mike that it varies so far from what everyone on the street already believed.

 

[Brainster]

That was Zimmerman, who was not indicted by a grand jury by by a politically appointed "special prosecutor". And O.J, who was probably found innocent exactly like you say..

Wilson's grand jury does not answer to any politicos, only their own conscious.

My own model is that they have witnesses who swear to the charging, an autopsy that call the other claims in to lies, and a "no bill" grand jury finding will be less likely to suffer the claims as a white wash than if the prosecutor merely declines to prosecute.

Question- does a grand jury come under double jeopardy clause? If the finding is 'no bill' can somebody like Rev Al get a special prosecutor involved, and try for a trail? Or will the 'no bill' end it? I'm sure new evidence can re-open, but otherwise?

Prosecutors can charge without a grand jury indictment; happens all the time.

 

[casebro]

Prosecutors can charge without a grand jury indictment; happens all the time.

Without fersure. But after a 'no bill', and with no new evidence?

 

[Cainkane1]

If what I've been hiearing is true the shooting was justified. I heard and I saw a video where this large thug had just robbed a store and while making his getaway he ran into the cop who at the time was unawarw of the robbery.

Perhaps thinking the police officer had arrived to arrest him he attacked the police officer who shot him in self defence.

The guys parents tried to describe him as a "gente giant" but the video says otherwise.

 

[newyorkguy]

This happened last September in North Carolina.

A grand jury has indicted Officer Randall Kerrick of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department on a charge of voluntary manslaughter in the September 14 shooting death of Jonathan Ferrell, according to a statement from state Attorney General Roy Cooper...The Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department has called the shooting unlawful. "The evidence revealed that Mr. Ferrell did advance on Officer Kerrick and the investigation showed that the subsequent shooting of Mr. Ferrell was excessive," police said in a statement on September 14, the day of the shooting. "Our investigation has shown that Officer Kerrick did not have a lawful right to discharge his weapon during this encounter." Link

Kerrick fired twelve shots at Ferrell, hitting him ten times and killing him. Officer Randall Kerrick has been indicted on manslaughter charges and awaits trial.

More than 200 people gathered in Charlotte’s Marshall Park on Thursday evening for a vigil to acknowledge victims of police abuse, after the recent killing of a black man by a white officer in Ferguson, Mo...At several points during Thursday’s event, the death of Jonathan Ferrell was brought up. Ferrell was shot and killed by a Charlotte-Mecklenburg police officer last September while seeking help after a car crash. Lawyers for the police officer say that Ferrell, who was unarmed, did not comply with orders to get down. Link