Michael Brown Shooting

[Kaosium]

If Brown did assault the officer, then fleeing felon would be fairly accurate. I don't see any reasonable person suggesting that Brown was shot because he was resisting arrest as a robbery suspect. Wilson claims Brown assaulted him and tried to get at his weapon. Johnson states that Brown never did that. Someone's not telling the truth.

How would it be possible for Brown to get at Wilson's weapon, assuming the conflict starts with Wilson still in the police vehicle?

At this point though people seem to be choosing sides based on who they believe, not on any real evidence one way or the other.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Brainster]

He wasn't shot in front of the Quicktrip.

Look at the friggin pictures of the body in the street, it's a narrow 2-lane residential street. There is no evidence any traffic was blocked.

I used the QuikTrip to get an idea of where the general neighborhood was. Remember, one of the employees at the store that Brown robbed said he was last seen heading towards the QuikTrip. From there, I looked at nearby sidestreets for Coppercreek, and thus was able to locate where the altercation/shooting took place.

 

[Distracted1]

How does the gun come out, and why?

That detail, AFAIK, is still not available. The early report was that the officer claimed that Mr. Brown pushed the officer into his vehicle and struggled with him for his weapon there.

One shot reportedly was fired inside the vehicle.

 

[Kaosium]

It would be up to a DA to decide if it was attempted murder. The policeman claimed that Brown attacked him and went for his gun, which makes a great deal of sense.

How would it be possible for Brown to get at Wilson's weapon if the latter was still in the police vehicle?

If you attacked someone you knew to be armed, would you not immediately try to get the gun from him? If that qualifies as attempted murder in your book then yes, attempted murder it is.

Either way it is a felony, and a violent one.

Why would he attack instead of run?

 

[That19Guy]

That detail, AFAIK, is still not available. The early report was that the officer claimed that Mr. Brown pushed the officer into his vehicle and struggled with him for his weapon there.

One shot reportedly was fired inside the vehicle.

Pushed him into the vehicle? All the other witnesses say the cop grabbed Big Mike, and the dude was pushing off the vehicle to get away from the cop. Maybe that's what the report meant perhaps?

 

[Giordano]

Interesting question. But I think it might bring more light on the issue to determine what percentage of cop killers have assaulted convenience store clerks.

Actually, that is exactly the wrong way to look at it for this discussion. Some believe hee assaulted a sales clerk. They want to judge from that if he would also kill a cop. The calculation works as I put it.

 

[Kaosium]

That detail, AFAIK, is still not available. The early report was that the officer claimed that Mr. Brown pushed the officer into his vehicle and struggled with him for his weapon there.

As you understand it, does Wilson's version have nothing happening through the window like Dorian Johnson's account?

One shot reportedly was fired inside the vehicle.

If Brown never had the weapon (didn't Belmar say this?) and was lying 35' away from the police vehicle with 'more than a couple' bullets in him and there were 'more than a few' casings recovered from outside the vehicle, would you consider that a justifiable use of force?

 

[johnny karate]

It would be up to a DA to decide if it was attempted murder. The policeman claimed that Brown attacked him and went for his gun, which makes a great deal of sense.

If you attacked someone you knew to be armed, would you not immediately try to get the gun from him? If that qualifies as attempted murder in your book then yes, attempted murder it is.

Either way it is a felony, and a violent one.

Do you not think it was attempted murder?

 

[johnny karate]

Actually, that is exactly the wrong way to look at it for this discussion. Some believe hee assaulted a sales clerk. They want to judge from that if he would also kill a cop. The calculation works as I put it.

It's actually a perfect way to look at it if one is committed to believing Michael Brown was trying to kill a cop.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes there is, regardless of whether the officer was aware of it or not, and there's contradictory information about that still.

For one thing it says something about Michael Brown's state of mind, as well as Dorian Johnson's and the latter's willingness to be forthcoming with the whole truth. Regardless of whether the police knew those two were involved (and they did almost immediately) Dorian Johnson can't know that and gave the impression this was only about the jaywalking, instead of the grab and go with a little physical intimidation to get out the door which had happened ten minutes before. Ten minutes.

But that only matters with the initial confrontation: Brown pushed a store clerk.

It doesn't apply to the cop shooting Brown. In fact, if the officer was aware that Brown only stole a carton of cigarillos, all the more reason he should have known better than to use lethal force against someone fleeing such a minor crime.

And contrary to all the claims that Brown was a dangerous criminal for hitting the officer, (if he did), it's still absurd overkill.

Or, a pissed off cop out of control of his temper. If that cop thought that resisting arrest meant Brown was a dangerous felon that called for lethal force to stop, that cop has a serious judgement problem and it was only a matter of time before he killed someone else.

As for grabbing the gun, that would have to have been after the cop pulled it because how would Brown have possibly hoped to reach for a holstered sidearm?

 

[Distracted1]

You have evidence that includes shooting at unarmed suspects who are fleeing?

Relative SCOTUS Ruling


What kind of judgement does an officer have when resisting arrest and pushing a store clerk while shoplifting cigarillos is concluded to be a dangerous felon.

I notice the use of "fleeing felon" is batted around here clearly to make that scary black kid seem dangerous.

The portion you highlighted indicates pretty clearly that there are times when it is appropriate to shoot a fleeing, unarmed felon.

Your refusal to differentiate between the first violent felony Mr. Brown committed that day, and the second one he committed ( which, according to Johnny Karate can reasonably be looked at as attempted murder ), seems impossible to overcome with logic.

 

[Giordano]

There are two basic issues here. First, how serious is the crime that the person fleeing is accused of. If the accusation is strong-arm robbery, then, yes, shooting him for fleeing is excessive force. On the other hand if the accusation is attempting to take a police officer's gun, which could certainly be considered attempted murder, then the crime is very serious indeed.

The other issue is whether the police officer believes that the person fleeing is an imminent danger to himself or others. In this instance I do not believe that there is any evidence that Brown was an imminent danger, assuming that it is correct that he was running away from the cop. Obviously we shall have to wait to see whether there were entrance wounds in Brown's back.

Even if the officer did scuffle with Mr. Brown for a gun, the officer was only allowed to shoot him during the scuffle to prevent Mr. Brown from getting the weapon (solid evidence of this, by the way?). But once Mr. Brown decided to stop scuffling and apparently run away, the officer was no longer allowed to shoot at him. If true, the scuffle was a serious crime and the officer had the right to arrest and charge Mr. Brown at any time thereafter. But not to shoot him after the supposed scuffle.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Regardless of what Brown was going to do if he gained control of the officer's weapon, I think it's entirely reasonable for the officer to have believed that what he would do is kill him with it.

 

[Giordano]

It's actually a perfect way to look at it if one is committed to believing Michael Brown was trying to kill a cop.

No, then we are asking if someone trying to kill a cop might be a cop killer. Not if a Strong Armed Robber might be a cop killer.

 

[Bogative]

Right, it's so brave how you fight those straw men. A suspect fleeing a shooting is definitely the same as a kid who pushed a store clerk when shoplifting and refused to obey a cop then resisted arrest. Oh my what a scary black kid.

No matter how many times you use this word, it's still going to be incorrect.

Shoplifting Legal Definition: Willful concealment of unpurchased merchandise of any retail store.

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/Shoplifting.aspx

I'm not sure why you're trying to downplay what he did as shoplifting when it is clearly evident in the video that what he did was a strong armed robbery.

The definition of a strong armed robbery is one that uses force in the commission of the robbery. It is the sudden snatching of property or money with the intent to deprive the owner of the property.

http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-the-definition-of-strong-arm-robbery

 

[Giordano]

Regardless of what Brown was going to do if he gained control of the officer's weapon, I think it's entirely reasonable for the officer to have believed that what he would do is kill him with it.

Which would be a crime worth arrest and charging, yes. But once the threat of being shot was removed, the cop cannot shoot Brown legally. By the way, could you point out the evidence for Brown trying to get the cop's gun, other than the cop's reported story? Was this story under oath, by the way?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If Brown did assault the officer, then fleeing felon would be fairly accurate. I don't see any reasonable person suggesting that Brown was shot because he was resisting arrest as a robbery suspect. Wilson claims Brown assaulted him and tried to get at his weapon. Johnson states that Brown never did that. Someone's not telling the truth.

At this point though people seem to be choosing sides based on who they believe, not on any real evidence one way or the other.

Riiight.

It's not about who I believe. It's my contention the preponderance of evidence (three consistent eyewitness stories) suggests Brown was trying to surrender. However, the autopsy is the thing that will hopefully tell us that answer with more certainty.

Lethal force against a petty shoplifter that resisted arrest was overkill by any sane measure of common sense.

Grabbed at the gun? Maybe if it was pointed at his face. This is a city where black people do not trust white cops. I think that's pretty well established.

So even given the cop's side of the story as told through the police chief's filter, it was needless excessive use of force.

Calling for back up, calling for a K-9 unit to track Brown down, waiting for Brown to show up in the ED with a gunshot, all of those actions would have been reasonable. Shooting a fleeing kid who resisted arrest, no, that was unnecessary.

 

[Giordano]

The portion you highlighted indicates pretty clearly that there are times when it is appropriate to shoot a fleeing, unarmed felon.

Your refusal to differentiate between the first violent felony Mr. Brown committed that day, and the second one he committed ( which, according to Johnny Karate can reasonably be looked at as attempted murder ), seems impossible to overcome with logic.

Perhaps you can cite just that part; I missed it.. Did you read the boldfaced portion of the SCUS decision too?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Which would be a crime worth arrest and charging, yes. But once the threat of being shot was removed, the cop cannot shoot Brown legally. By the way, could you point out the evidence for Brown trying to get the cop's gun, other than the cop's reported story? Was this story under oath, by the way?

I'm not sure if it was under oath but I consider a police officer who has gone through extensive background checks and been on the force for six years with apparently no complaints against him, to be more reliable than Dorian Johnson and yes even more reliable than the various witnesses around. They would've only really started paying significant attention after gunfire had already begun, I suspect. The cop had a better vantage point than anyone except Michael Brown, who is no longer with us, and would be lying if he was.

So I find the officer's account to be the most credible thing we have, at this time, and will continue to until something very convincing in the way of physical evidence contradicts it in a meaningful way.

The other strong evidence in his favor are his apparent injuries, which hopefully were photographed and otherwise documented, and the fact that he ended up shooting Brown in the first place.

Because that is either evidence Brown did something which would cause a police officer to shoot him (and going for the officer's firearm certainly qualifies) or that the officer is just some raging racist murderer who remained undetected as such until the day he finally snapped... over jaywalking.

 

[Kaosium]

But that only matters with the initial confrontation: Brown pushed a store clerk.

He also did this from a neighborhood store and must have known it was on camera. That kind of arrogance bespeaks....something. I'm not sure yet. Was he planning on ever returning to that store, I wonder? He was going to school as I recall, would that have involved a move?

It doesn't apply to the cop shooting Brown. In fact, if the officer was aware that Brown only stole a carton of cigarillos, all the more reason he should have known better than to use lethal force against someone fleeing such a minor crime.

Yeah, that's where it gets weird. If he knew that then he knew Brown was caught on camera--no need for summary justice.

And contrary to all the claims that Brown was a dangerous criminal for hitting the officer, (if he did), it's still absurd overkill.

Or, a pissed off cop out of control of his temper. If that cop thought that resisting arrest meant Brown was a dangerous felon that called for lethal force to stop, that cop has a serious judgement problem and it was only a matter of time before he killed someone else.

I agree and it looks like there's an element of that no matter what here. Too many bullets at too short a range.

As for grabbing the gun, that would have to have been after the cop pulled it because how would Brown have possibly hoped to reach for a holstered sidearm?

Especially if this started inside the car and through the window.