Michael Brown Shooting

[I Am The Scum]

the officer's claim...

Do we have any actual statements from the officer, or is this just stuff being made up?

 

[casebro]

How about this potential time line:

Brown and Johnson rob the store.

Minutes later, Officer tells them to get on the side walk.

Officer gets report , with matching description, possible even naming Mr. Brown, while driving away.

Officer backs up to grab the thief.

You know the rest.

 

[dudalb]

True. Also if he did try and grab the officer's gun, once he stopped grabbing for it, then the officer was probably not authorized to use deadly force to prevent his escape. At least in New York, police are not supposed to use deadly force unless it is to immediately protect their lives or someone else's. The circumstances in which this shooting took place sounds more like the officer was handing out punishment, not trying to take Brown into custody.

Just cannot give up the idea that Brown was perfectly innocent, can you?

OF COURSE if Brown was a suspect in a violent crime (and if he did rough up the clerk it WAS a violent crime in the eyes of the law) it is revelent to how the cop handled the situation.

Which is not to say that the killing was justified. I can see firing a shot in self defence if Brown was trying to grab the officer's gun, but emptying a gun at him while he was fleeing sounds to me like an execution.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You can't see that a minority officer involved would put a big dent in the racial overtones of the discussion?

Of course we would still have the Pigs vs the Bros to discuss.

Anyone watching Tiffany Mitchell tell what she witnessed and thinks she made it up is pretty racist. Because there is no reason to think she's lying except that she's black.

 

[Tony]

People actually believe you should be able to attempt to murder a police officer, beat him bloody in the process... and then when he prevents your attempt and gets control of the situation, you should be able to just say "okay I give up" and that's the end of it?

Yes. The cop is a professional, he needs to act like it. His job isn't to exact revenge on a perp for hurting him.

 

[dudalb]

How about this potential time line:

Brown and Johnson rob the store.

Minutes later, Officer tells them to get on the side walk.

Officer gets report , with matching description, possible even naming Mr. Brown, while driving away.

Officer backs up to grab the thief.

You know the rest.

Actually we don't know the rest, which is why I a waiting for more details of the actual shooting before making up my mind.

I notice that Unabogie has sort of dissapeared from this thread, since he was pushing the "totally innocent Black man murdered by the cops" line from almost the firsst minute the story broke, without waiting for any facts.
A good example of somebody driven purely by political ideology.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Then explain to me what you think the department's use-of-force standards should be. If someone is suspected of robbery, then shoot first, ask questions later?
Enlighten me. I want to know.

Is that what happened?

Or was he shot in an event where he had assaulted and battered a police officer, and tried to take the officer's weapon?

If you were a cop, and a robbery suspect reacted to you trying to stop and question him about it by pushing you into your cruiser, then beating you about the head, and then tried to gain control of your firearm... what would you be inclined to think he would've done with that firearm had he been successful?

I'd like you Brown sympathizers to put yourselves in the shoes of this cop. He's alone, no partner in the car. He pulls up on these guys, and he's outnumbered. Two of them, one of him, the larger one (6'3" 290lbs) pushes him into his cruiser, beats him, and very nearly gets control of his gun in the process.

Now think about the level of fear and adrenaline in you at that point if you're that officer. You are really going to sit on your comfy computer chair in your air conditioned environment, and pass judgment on how many shots he fired in the next few moments, or whether he noticed and heeded some possible attempt on Brown's part to run away?

Things happen very very fast in such a situation. Did the officer know where the other suspect was? Did he know that neither of them had their own firearm? Etc.

The way to avoid Brown's fate is:

1.) Don't be a robber
2.) Don't try to murder cops

I've found it a pretty reliable formula so far in my life.

 

[Tony]

The idea that BOTH parties could be at fault here seem to be not very popular here, since you can't work that into a preconceived ideologically based scenario.

That's how it is starting to look. Brown robbed the store and brought the heat on himself. The police handled the situation extremely poorly and let the public response get out of control.

 

[Giz]

True. Also if he did try and grab the officer's gun, once he stopped grabbing for it, then the officer was probably not authorized to use deadly force to prevent his escape. At least in New York, police are not supposed to use deadly force unless it is to immediately protect their lives or someone else's. The circumstances in which this shooting took place sounds more like the officer was handing out punishment, not trying to take Brown into custody.

Yeah, this could well still be the case.

We really need the forensics/autopsy to tell us the maximum distance the shots were fired from. If they were point blank and then Brown ran a dozen yards before collapsing it is one thing... if some were fired from a dozen yards away at an unarmed, retreating suspect... that is something that will be hard to justify.

If there's one thing this case should tell good skeptics, it's: be prepared to revise any initial judgement, in either direction, as more information comes out.

 

[William Parcher]

This isn't conclusive but there doesn't appear to be any bloody holes in the back.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Rather than edit the above, let me rephrase that to, Michael Brown MAY have been involved in a strong arm robbery. I watched it live and posted quickly.
My apologies to my JREF friends for being a little keyboard happy.

The news isn't reporting it, but I thought I heard earlier that Dorian Johnson admitted Brown had taken the cigarillos.

So now it turns out Brown was a petty thief suspect and jaywalking.

The police reports and the video from the mini-mart show Brown grabbing or pushing the store clerk so the charge is "strong-arm robbery".

It only changes the initial encounter through the police car window. It doesn't change the shooting of the fleeing suspect who apparently had then given up and turned around with his hands up.

It's only going to make the police look like they are covering up by the police not saying the officer was stopping a robbery suspect as opposed to confronting a jaywalker who refused a police order.

However, nothing the officer did is consistent with a normal stop for a robbery suspect. We've all seen videos of police telling suspects to get on the ground, show your arms, that scenario. Police don't typically pull up to a suspect and confront him through the car window. But a cop might do that if he was just dealing with disrespectful kids.

If the store clerk says Brown claimed he had a gun that would justify the cop pulling his weapon. But if the cop thought Brown did or might have a gun, he clearly didn't handle the stop that way.
If there is a dispatch call (which are all recorded) telling the cop to look for the suspects, that again gives the reason for the stop, but not the method the cop used. The dispatch recording (or lack of one) might be important.

This is really going to depend on the autopsy. If your arms are raised when you are shot, blood spatter might show that. You can bet the officer is going to claim Brown was reaching for something if he shot Brown who had turned around.

 

[casebro]

Frankly, this thread has become an excellent example of why this section and the two politics sections richly deserve their reputation at JREF as being where reason and rational thinking go to die.

And proof that political ideology can be just as bad as religon when it comes to making people reject facts when it does not fit in with their beliefs.

So have you got a better site? I'm sure there are racist sites, and Black Empowerment sites, and cop hating sites, and cop loving sites,.... But can you refer us to a site where they are all represented and are discussing the issues?

Please?

 

[dudalb]

True. Also if he did try and grab the officer's gun, once he stopped grabbing for it, then the officer was probably not authorized to use deadly force to prevent his escape. At least in New York, police are not supposed to use deadly force unless it is to immediately protect their lives or someone else's. The circumstances in which this shooting took place sounds more like the officer was handing out punishment, not trying to take Brown into custody.

According to one commentator, Under Missouri Law a felon fleeing the scene of a violent crime can be shot while fleeing.

I would be surprised if New York Law did not permit shooting a fleein suspect under those circumstances.

 

[Kaosium]

I think when someone responds to an officer catching them coming from the scene of a strong arm felony robbery by attempting to beat that officer, take his sidearm, and murder that officer with it... it is necessary for them to die.

You don't know that happened either. What you know is that instead of jaywalking the probable reason the officer confronted them was that Michael Brown matched the description of someone who took cigars without paying for them and physically intimidated the clerk when he protested.

There's physical evidence here that isn't going to be easy to fit into your scenario regardless if whether Dorian Johnson's story was self-serving lies.

It is certainly in society's best interest that they die.

Geez, I like Dirty Harry movies too, but mainly because they're not real.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Do we have any actual statements from the officer, or is this just stuff being made up?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nager-in-missouri-fbi-launches-investigation/

Belmar, the county police chief ... said on Sunday that a Ferguson police officer “had an encounter” with Brown and another person on Sunday. At some point, the officer was reportedly pushed back in the car and “physically assaulted,” the chief said.

There was a struggle over the officer’s weapon, which was fired once in the car, he said. Following that, the officer got out of the car and shot at the teenager multiple times. Brown was killed about 35 feet away from the officer’s car, Belmar said.

It's an actual statement from the police chief. does that count ?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Do you have any reason to believe that or just noting the possibility? While the witnesses may have been mistaken or lying about other things I don't think the hue of the officer would be one of them.

Just noting the possibility. Has anyone said he was? Or is that just the assumption?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Anyone watching Tiffany Mitchell tell what she witnessed and thinks she made it up is pretty racist. Because there is no reason to think she's lying except that she's black.

I disagree, I think there are numerous reasons to think she would lie other than just being black, in fact I'm not even sure I'd list her being black as one of the many reasons... at least not in the strict, direct way you imply. Here, let me count the ways:

1.) Community loyalty - as in, if she was still a black female of the same age, but instead of living there, she was a visiting Jamaican pharmaceutical rep who'd simply been driving past, I'd be more inclined to trust her because there wouldn't be the feeling of "this cop came into my community and killed one of my own." At least not as much.

2.) "Stop snitchin'" meme - very prevalent in lots of areas like this, and certainly we know it's prevalent here thanks to the graffiti. She'd potentially face serious consequences in her own neighborhood, circle, even family if she'd given an account that favored a white police officer. If you aren't aware of this or doubt this, I'd find that pretty naive of you. Sorry to say.

3.) General unreliability of witness testimony and the potential for emotion to taint it. We had some white female witnesses in the Trayvon case who said they saw things which literally could not have happened, based on the timeline and physical evidence, and we had people whose accounts became more and more pro-Trayvon as the case got bigger, because they were being influenced by the "zeitgeist" about the case, and a natural tendency to sympathize more with a younger person, and demonize a person with a gun.

4.) If Ms. Mitchell has a generalized dislike or even hatred for whites and/or police, which is FAR FROM UNCOMMON in such areas (really, doubt this at your own peril) this could have a massive impact on her perception and what she ended up saying.

I could go on and on with reasons like this... many of them touch on her race, but none of them boils down to simply "I don't trust her because she's black" - that's silly. But you have to be willing to consider the cultural context and all that, and yes some of those considerations will be related to race.

 

[dudalb]

So have you got a better site? I'm sure there are racist sites, and Black Empowerment sites, and cop hating sites, and cop loving sites,.... But can you refer us to a site where they are all represented and are discussing the issues?

Please?

No I was just comenting that the politics sections are widely regarded as being where a great many normally rational members totallly succumb to the confirmation bias fallacy. Just check the forums here the discuss the forum,and you will see I am not alone.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Then why was his friend not arrested or questioned about a robbery? In fact, they didn't even want to question his friend about the dead kid lying in the street. And why did Wilson tell them to "get the **** on the sidewalk" if he was actually investigating a robbery?

Oh, wait, they "matched the description". Let me guess, "young black male". I guess it's ok to kill random black kids if there was a robbery somewhere, sometime. I swear, this is hitting all the Zimmerman Greatest Hits. Wait for it, officer Wilson is going to say he was in "fear for his life" as he shot the kid running away from him.

Nothing the cop did was consistent with stopping a strong arm robbery suspect.

But in the mini-mart video it reportedly shows Brown giving some of the cigarillos to Dorian who then put the cigarillos on the counter, refusing to take them.

I'm watching the video now and it isn't in this part of it. I'd like to see the earlier section.

 

[Cain]

So far I've remained silent on this case rather than stupidly rushing to judgment (like so many of you), but in light of these new revelations, I'm gonna have to side with Al Sharpton.