Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Ampulla of Vater]

But this is a myth of the innocentisti. Vecchiotti and Conti are not "independent" experts, they are judge appointed experts. Only the judge is independent. The judge is supposed to be neutral but only until he judges. After he judges he takes a side, from that moment he is considering biased. But Hellmann Zanetti not only have taken a side, they have also been completely discredited. The SC destroyed them completely, challenged Vecchiotti's "intellectual honesty" and basically pointed her making up document content, and all of Hellmann's trial conduct and decisions were annulled (except part of the calunnia finding). Then we had also external source claiming that the defence was having contacts with Vecchiotti and Conti before the publishing of their report (through experts Hampikiam and Budowle). Btw Vecchiotti has a dubious reputation herself also due to other cases.
How can this expert be anyhow considers "neutral"? This is really unduly naive.

Well, we know Stefanoni was not neutral whatsoever. Vecchiotti had to be more neutral than Stef. Between the two of them, I believe Vecchiotti comes across as being the more neutral and honest. Why yes by golly, I shall put my trust in her findings. At least she didn't flat out lie.

 

[acbytesla]

Who is Bertha? She's into dope?

Bertha is the world's largest Tunnel Boring Machine. She has damaged seals and they are working to replace her seals.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/About/FollowBertha

Grinder is needling me about this.

 

[Strozzi]

I believe Rudy Guede will meet an unfortunate end sometime after he is released, courtesy of the Italian police. Not right away, but maybe a year later. He's too much of a loose canon. They'll give him a chance to keep up his end, but when he starts to wobble, first sign of trouble, I think they'll give him a 'curatolo' send off.

There's no way they are letting Rudy Guede hang around to implicate the prosecution and police. Which he will have to offer to do the next time he's caught with a dead girl. He has black outs and wanders away at night miles from his home. He pleasured himself over a dying woman he had mortally wounded moments earlier. He has serious mental issues, he can't control himself. They are nuts to let him out of an institution to roam free.

But one way or another, Rudy Guede will never be on trial for murder/rape again, no matter who he kills or rapes - imo -

Are you predicting the old pants-don't-fit, double-body-swap? Better get Mignini on it. He knows about those things.

 

[Strozzi]

Assuming they don't watch him like a hawk (They really cannot unless they assign somebody permanently to him), if he does anything remotely like what we think the actual crime is then I think that is the one thing that the pro guilt side will have a hard time swallowing. Maybe a few diehards may remain but most will desert the guilt side. Unfortunately, some woman may get badly hurt or killed.

If the PLE is smart about it, Rudy will be released into a supportive, structured environment. He will be placed in a job where he comes into contact with few outsiders, provided with stable housing, and exist in a supportive social circle where he can be mentored and watched. His relationships will be monitored, and he will be told not to talk to journalists. I predict his phone will be tapped. You won't find Rudy hanging around the cathedral steps or dancing at the discos.

 

[Samson]

If the PLE is smart about it, Rudy will be released into a supportive, structured environment. He will be placed in a job where he comes into contact with few outsiders, provided with stable housing, and exist in a supportive social circle where he can be mentored and watched. His relationships will be monitored, and he will be told not to talk to journalists. I predict his phone will be tapped. You won't find Rudy hanging around the cathedral steps or dancing at the discos.

If Amanda and Raffaele are found innocent on appeal, Rudy becomes guilty of Callunia. He accused an innocent man and an innocent woman of murder. He will get four years extra jail. Oh, and the sentence mitigation goes out the window because he was not encouraged by others.

That will all be a cold day in hell of course.
Poor Rudy.

 

[carbonjam72]

If the PLE is smart about it, Rudy will be released into a supportive, structured environment.

In Italy?

He will be placed in a job where he comes into contact with few outsiders, provided with stable housing, and exist in a supportive social circle where he can be mentored and watched. His relationships will be monitored, and he will be told not to talk to journalists. I predict his phone will be tapped. You won't find Rudy hanging around the cathedral steps or dancing at the discos.

Does Italy have a scientific outpost in Antarctica? Do they have an indoor basketball court?

 

[carbonjam72]

If Amanda and Raffaele are found innocent on appeal, Rudy becomes guilty of Callunia. He accused an innocent man and an innocent woman of murder. He will get four years extra jail. Oh, and the sentence mitigation goes out the window because he was not encouraged by others.

That will all be a cold day in hell of course.
Poor Rudy.

A finding that there is insufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for AK/RS, does not necessarily mean Rudy lied. It's an indeterminate outcome, so everybody goes home happy, sort of.

If AK/RS found innocent, then one would think Rudy would have a problem, but Stef lied on the stand, and she's on the police, and not even suspended for her blatant perjury.

Also, I thought criminals (defendants) were allowed to lie on the stand in Italy, even if they're not good liars.

 

[Samson]

A finding that there is insufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for AK/RS, does not necessarily mean Rudy lied. It's an indeterminate outcome, so everybody goes home happy, sort of.

If AK/RS found innocent, then one would think Rudy would have a problem, but Stef lied on the stand, and she's on the police, and not even a suspension for her blatant perjury.

Also, I thought criminals were allowed to lie on the stand in Italy, even if they're not good liars.

Rudy's lie is what could be termed a whoppa. Mind you, it is hard to walk in another man's shoes. What would we have all done encouraged by thugnini?

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy didn't plan the lies implicating Amanda and Raffaele. (He couldn't have done that to Raffaele even if he wanted to, because he never met Raffaele and didn't even know his name until he read about their arrest in Perugia while Rudy was running in Germany.)

No, Rudy didn't plan the lies. He was given the framework by the police and Mignini, with his lawyer's cooperation.

 

[Kaosium]

If Amanda and Raffaele are found innocent on appeal, Rudy becomes guilty of Callunia. He accused an innocent man and an innocent woman of murder. He will get four years extra jail. Oh, and the sentence mitigation goes out the window because he was not encouraged by others.

That will all be a cold day in hell of course.
Poor Rudy.

I wouldn't be too sure that Rudy Guede would face calunnia charges, he and his lawyer (with help from Mignini) were very careful about how they went about this. I tried to explain it to JHunter once and he probably thought I was nuts when it's really what three very devious minds came up with.

Rudy didn't actually confess or directly accuse Raffaele and Amanda of the murder. He still maintains his original story with the convenient additions Mignini got from him is true. Thus he never actually saw the murder, he didn't see the one who pushed by him very well and at best he just saw a 'silhouette' of the girl and heard her talking in Italian. His letter doesn't actually change that, as he 'explained' before Hellmann, he just decided to let out what he claimed had been 'inside him' the whole time, that those two people must have been Raffaele and Amanda, like the Italian public and the judges of Italy believed.

It's all a convoluted way of having it seem like Rudy Guede testified that Raffaele and Amanda were the murderers without having him be subjected to cross examination or risk calunnia charges, he's just agreeing with 'everyone else' that it must have been them.

 

[Samson]

I wouldn't be too sure that Rudy Guede would face calunnia charges, he and his lawyer (with help from Mignini) were very careful about how they went about this. I tried to explain it to JHunter once and he probably thought I was nuts when it's really what three very devious minds came up with.

Rudy didn't actually confess or directly accuse Raffaele and Amanda of the murder. He still maintains his original story with the convenient additions Mignini got from him is true. Thus he never actually saw the murder, he didn't see the one who pushed by him very well and at best he just saw a 'silhouette' of the girl and heard her talking in Italian. His letter doesn't actually change that, as he 'explained' before Hellmann, he just decided to let out what he claimed had been 'inside him' the whole time, that those two people must have been Raffaele and Amanda, like the Italian public and the judges of Italy believed.

It's all a convoluted way of having it seem like Rudy Guede testified that Raffaele and Amanda were the murderers without having him be subjected to cross examination or risk calunnia charges, he's just agreeing with 'everyone else' that it must have been them.

Unfortunately I realise all that, and was not seriously suggesting callunia would ever be introduced for him.
The clear way you describe it should be laid out to John Kerry before it is too late. It seems that is precisely what happened.

 

[anglolawyer]

The first LCN DNA in the US was allowed in a NY court IIRC. The judge insisted on approving the lab set-up or in some way the lab had to prove that all safeguards were in place.

I would expect that a judge might rule that Stefanoni's DNA would not be allowed because her lab and the rest were not up to LCN standards. The judge would rule this way because he would understand that people, think PGP, once told the DNA was on the knife would not let it go no matter what the defense says. In our case a Dr. (real) insists that contamination must be proven or at least that it be probable.

If a fingerprint only has 3 points would a british or american judge allow it in?

Yes, I think so, because fingerprint matching is an acknowledged science, not a developmental one. The prosecution might want to use the print as merely corroborative rather than directly probative. Nothing wrong with that. It's not for the judge to filter the crown's case in that way.

The bathmat print cannot be directly matched to Guede but it is also not incompatible with his print, so it is a small item of circumstantial value of some, but not much, weight. It would be wrong for the judge to disallow it.

Of course, judges still retain the power (here anyway) to throw a case out at 'half-time' on a submission of 'no case to answer'. That is, the defence may submit at the close of the prosecution case that the evidence does not discharge the evidential burden and that there is no need for the defendant to answer it. Extreme example: if you tried to prove Guede did it solely by reference to the bathmat print the case would surely be chucked out without reaching the jury. In our system, such a decision is for the judge alone. But s/he is not ruling the evidence inadmissible, just inadequate.

 

[anglolawyer]

Who is Bertha? She's into dope?

She is part of the Seattle underground

 

[anglolawyer]

But this is a myth of the innocentisti. Vecchiotti and Conti are not "independent" experts, they are judge appointed experts. Only the judge is independent. The judge is supposed to be neutral but only until he judges. After he judges he takes a side, from that moment he is considering biased. But Hellmann Zanetti not only have taken a side, they have also been completely discredited. The SC destroyed them completely, challenged Vecchiotti's "intellectual honesty" and basically pointed her making up document content, and all of Hellmann's trial conduct and decisions were annulled (except part of the calunnia finding). Then we had also external source claiming that the defence was having contacts with Vecchiotti and Conti before the publishing of their report (through experts Hampikiam and Budowle). Btw Vecchiotti has a dubious reputation herself also due to other cases.
How can this expert be anyhow considers "neutral"? This is really unduly naive.

Well, we know Stefanoni was not neutral whatsoever. Vecchiotti had to be more neutral than Stef. Between the two of them, I believe Vecchiotti comes across as being the more neutral and honest. Why yes by golly, I shall put my trust in her findings. At least she didn't flat out lie.

What balderdash, Machiavelli! The independent experts are properly so described since they were not acting on the instructions of either party but at the behest of the court.

Also, you need to look up bias in the dictionary. It does not mean forming an opinion. It means:

inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair

It is meaningless and an abuse of language to say that a judge becomes biased once s/he reaches a verdict. Your opinion that the ISC 'destroyed' Hellman, with the necessary implication that the ISC verdict was well-founded, is a good example of bias at work. Likewise, your and others' assessments of Amanda based on her appearance or magical qualities as a supreme actress.

 

[anglolawyer]

I have a question: if Hellman had said Stefanoni was a liar, rather than that she had an understandable lapse of memory, could he have been prosecuted for calumny or anything else?

 

[Grinder]

I have a question: if Hellman had said Stefanoni was a liar, rather than that she had an understandable lapse of memory, could he have been prosecuted for calumny or anything else?

I refer this question to our resident lawyer.

 

[Grinder]

I wouldn't be too sure that Rudy Guede would face calunnia charges, he and his lawyer (with help from Mignini) were very careful about how they went about this. I tried to explain it to JHunter once and he probably thought I was nuts when it's really what three very devious minds came up with.

Rudy didn't actually confess or directly accuse Raffaele and Amanda of the murder. He still maintains his original story with the convenient additions Mignini got from him is true. Thus he never actually saw the murder, he didn't see the one who pushed by him very well and at best he just saw a 'silhouette' of the girl and heard her talking in Italian. His letter doesn't actually change that, as he 'explained' before Hellmann, he just decided to let out what he claimed had been 'inside him' the whole time, that those two people must have been Raffaele and Amanda, like the Italian public and the judges of Italy believed.

It's all a convoluted way of having it seem like Rudy Guede testified that Raffaele and Amanda were the murderers without having him be subjected to cross examination or risk calunnia charges, he's just agreeing with 'everyone else' that it must have been them.

Is there a link to the letter Rudy wrote and Mignini read as I recall he did call them the murderers.

Knox broke down at her appeal hearing after Rudy Guede, 24, said she was responsible for the death of the exchange student. "He knows that we were not there, he knows that we have nothing to do with this," Knox said.The testimony by Guede, an immigrant from the Ivory Coast, was closely watched in the packed courtroom in Perugia.
He had been called as a witness for the prosecution in the appeal trial of Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian ex-boyfriend and co-defendant.
He spoke after two of Guede's fellow prison inmates, child killer Mario Alessi and mobster Luciano Aviello, told the hearing that Guede had said Knox and Sollecito, 27, had nothing to do with the murder. Guede denied ever discussing the matter with Alessi.
....


Knox looked intently at Guede as he spoke just a few feet away from her in the packed courtroom. In the letter Guede had said: "Everything I want to say I have told the court and my lawyers. Do you think if I had anything to say I would speak with a child killer?"
After Guede had finished his testimony, Knox stood up and said: "The first time that Rudy Guede, Raffaele and I were all together in the same space was in a court room. We have never been in contact. I am shocked and anguished, truly, by what he says."
Sollecito was also granted permission to speak and said: "Guede has never seen me before in his life, not even fleetingly, I don't know how he can say I was with Amanda Knox."

interesting wording by Raf.

 

[anglolawyer]

I refer this question to our resident lawyer.

We have a resident Italian lawyer? Elsewhere, I was referred to a revision of the code apparently conferring immunity from suit for diffumazione - it might have been article 587 or something like that - which left me puzzled about the slander claim against Amanda which, I think, resulted from evidence she gave in court.

Btw. the case against Edda Mellas for repeating what Amanda said continues in Florence, as a point of interest.

Maybe Mach can enlighten us because it's concerning that Stefanoni's clear and flagrant lies were not properly exposed. I thought maybe the reason might be that Italian does not confer immunity even on judges.

 

[Desert Fox]

We have a resident Italian lawyer? Elsewhere, I was referred to a revision of the code apparently conferring immunity from suit for diffumazione - it might have been article 587 or something like that - which left me puzzled about the slander claim against Amanda which, I think, resulted from evidence she gave in court.

Btw. the case against Edda Mellas for repeating what Amanda said continues in Florence, as a point of interest.

Maybe Mach can enlighten us because it's concerning that Stefanoni's clear and flagrant lies were not properly exposed. I thought maybe the reason might be that Italian does not confer immunity even on judges.

It looks like a legal system that is basically out of control. The US legal system has some pretty bad decisions but seems more or less localized.
I suspect that with the controversy involving this case as well, most US courts would find some way too just sweep the case under the rug - maybe just call the case on some legal technicality.

Edit: That Amanda can keep studying and even getting honors in school is astounding. That shows some strength of character because I think many, if not most people, would have crumbled at this point in time.

 

[anglolawyer]

It looks like a legal system that is basically out of control. The US legal system has some pretty bad decisions but seems more or less localized.
I suspect that with the controversy involving this case as well, most US courts would find some way too just sweep the case under the rug - maybe just call the case on some legal technicality.

Edit: That Amanda can keep studying and even getting honors in school is astounding. That shows some strength of character because I think many, if not most people, would have crumbled at this point in time.

Amen. People don't realise the drip, drip pressure of these prolonged cases. People have their breaking points.