Future of the Forum

[madurobob]

...but that probably needs to wait until we see what we actually get before we start working too hard on improvements (there may be plans and visions that take precedent over our druthers).

But we've got to waste our time talking about *something* in the several days we have before the JREFF makes any official announcement. Or, are we gonna go on talking about how scared we are of email addresses for 10 more pages?

 

[madurobob]

Also, I am another person in favor of not relaxing the rules, especially the rules on ad hominem attacks and profanity.

I am firmly in this camp as well. For some values of "profanity". I think that name of Penn & Teller's show is perfectly acceptable. But, this is not a dealbreaker for me.

 

[Olowkow]

See: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10156486#post10156486

I am a Darat fan. Always have been. The JREF forum means a lot to me.

But....
Isn't there usually a banner put up to inform all members when big decisions with deadlines are in the works? I suspect a lot of members aren't even aware of the forum's troubles. Could this request perhaps be posted as some kind of headline?

So, if you have any lingering brainstorm ideas that you wish to propose, please email to sharon@randi.org by
Wednesday, August 13, at 12 noon Eastern time U.S.

And what's with icerat's sig line? He appears to be very technically competent if we accept the validity of his published bona fides, but is the attitude expressed in his sig line something we want to see in a person in charge? I'm not easily miffed, but that is pure swingdickery, IMHO. I've managed people, and I would not have done that. But what do I know?

A lot of current events just don't feel right to this skeptic.

 

[sadhatter]

So i have to ask, if one really believes the jref would give this information to a third party with malicious or unknown intent, how could you tell they havnt done that already? If you're opinion of them is that low, don't you think that they would have just been giving this to the highest bidder? After all, let's be honest, how could one even begin to trace that back to them, assuming they put a little effort in keeping the dealing clandestine?

I honestly think the"but my personnel data" comments are just a dressed up version of the feeling of betrayal most of us are feeling. A lot of people don't want to state " this feels like a dear John letter", so it's being dressed up as concerns about private data.

I get it, this sucks, and write frankly I'm very glad my tattoo is supporting James Randi not the jref, but in all seriousness if they didn't care about our privacy there would be more profitable ways to divulge it, if they havnt done it yet, they won't do it now.

 

[xterra]

I am firmly in this camp as well. For some values of "profanity". I think that name of Penn & Teller's show is perfectly acceptable. But, this is not a dealbreaker for me.

Depends on whether one wants to keep the forum "kid friendly," or maybe I mean "parent-of-kid friendly." But that's a discussion that can wait until there is a forum to keep.

 

[Stellafane]

Out of curiosity, how many members here would calmly go back to the status quo should Sharon appear this afternoon and say "nevermind, the JREF has decided to keep the forums for now"?

Depending on how one defines "calmly," me I suppose. But given the way some aspects of this has been handled, I doubt true status quo is achievable at this point.

 

[madurobob]

Depending on how one defines "calmly," me I suppose. But given the way some aspects of this has been handled, I doubt true status quo is achievable at this point.

Perhaps calmly was a poor choice of words. I, too, would likely continue to post here occasionally, but I would be actively seeking a similar forum elsewhere, or trying to create one. For me, the trust has been broken, the veil pierced. I love you, baby, but it can't go back to the way it was...

 

[theprestige]

I think the discussion of changing the forum should be decoupled from the question of moving the forum.

I think most of us probably would like to change the forum. I think most of us would also be quite pleased if the forum in its current form continued to exist for another week, another month, another year. If it never changed again, we'd probably all be happy to have it in its current form, than not at all.

So I think that the middle of a momentous, contentious moving of the forum, we find ourselves at the worst possible time to also debate changing the forum. Let us not multiply entities unnecessarily!

Let us focus now on the matter at hand: the unavoidable moving of the forum. Since we are all agreed that the forum is desirable in its current form, let us focus on moving it in its current form.

Later, after the dust has settled, when the forum is under new management, and we have satisfied ourselves that nothing of value has been lost. Then--only then--should we take up the question of how we wish to increase the value of the forum by improving on its current form.

The romantic in me says that we should wait a year and a day from the move, before we take up any question of changing the MA, offering an amnesty, etc.

 

[smartcooky]

I am firmly in this camp as well. For some values of "profanity". I think that name of Penn & Teller's show is perfectly acceptable. But, this is not a dealbreaker for me.

Interesting question. I would. ETA But I would also suggest that TPTB, in this case, our admin/mod team consult icerat and others to prepare a contingency plan for JREF'S next round of "we decided to drop the forum."

Also, I am another person in favor of not relaxing the rules, especially the rules on ad hominem attacks and profanity.

On profanity, another forum I am on has a profanity censor setting which users can turn off.

The censor is on by default when a user first joins and for the public/lurkers and users who are not logged on. However, individual, logged in users can turn the setting off if they choose so that they can see exactly what any poster has posted, uncensored. It then becomes a personal choice rather than an imposition from above.

This could perhaps be a feature only available for "paid" subscriptions

 

[madurobob]

On profanity, another forum I am on has a profanity censor setting which users can turn off.

The censor is on by default when a user first joins and for the public/lurkers and users who are not logged on. However, individual, logged in users can turn the setting off if they choose so that they can see exactly what any poster has posted, uncensored. It then becomes a personal choice rather than an imposition from above.

This could perhaps be a feature only availbale for "paid" subscriptions

Interesting. Sort of a "if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out" kind of approach. The more I think about it, the more wary I am of it, tho, but I'm having a hard time giving my feelings words. I guess I'm wary of over-use, and some like minded paying members having entire profane side conversations in threads that only a select view can interpret. It'd take a good deal of Moderator attention to make it work.

 

[madurobob]

Let us focus now on the matter at hand: the unavoidable moving of the forum. Since we are all agreed that the forum is desirable in its current form, let us focus on moving it in its current form.

Later, after the dust has settled, when the forum is under new management, and we have satisfied ourselves that nothing of value has been lost. Then--only then--should we take up the question of how we wish to increase the value of the forum by improving on its current form.

As far as I can tell, icerats proposal is to move the forum intact, as it is. that part is all but decided, in terms of the plan. To the casual user the move will be mostly transparent but for an opt-in on the new forum. Status quo is more or less maintained and everything is rainbows and unicorns. If JREF accepts the plan.

But, there is nothing really to talk about in that regard until the JREF announces its decision - whenever that will be.

So, in the interim, what the heck are we supposed to talk about?

Or, do I just need to switch to decaf and STFU... ?

 

[Trakar]

...I get it, this sucks, and write frankly I'm very glad my tattoo is supporting James Randi not the jref, but in all seriousness if they didn't care about our privacy there would be more profitable ways to divulge it, if they havnt done it yet, they won't do it now.

True, they'd want to wait at least six months to throw off any future investigations.

 

[Trakar]

But we've got to waste our time talking about *something* in the several days we have before the JREFF makes any official announcement. Or, are we gonna go on talking about how scared we are of email addresses for 10 more pages?

Start a separate thread, it'd be easier than fishing this discussion out of the existing threads.

 

[The Man]

Depends on whether one wants to keep the forum "kid friendly," or maybe I mean "parent-of-kid friendly." But that's a discussion that can wait until there is a forum to keep.

Perhaps if there were a sailor speak or sewer mouth section. I know I'm getting tired of just typing heck, crap and dang all the time. While a little salty language never bothered me it has the propensity to get over done.

That ****** **** **** ****** idea has to be the ******** ***-**** shaped **** ever **** out an *******!

 

[banquetbear]

OK. So are most.

...cite? There are hundreds of thousands of internet forums out there. As far as I'm aware most of those them are not dedicated to skepticism or critical thinking. They are dedicated to things like classic cars and Justin Beiber. If you have information to indicate otherwise please let us all know.

At this point there is no indication that any of these will change, nor that such information will be in any way other than transparent.

The process has been anything but transparent so far. We all woke up one morning to find out the forums were being transferred and there was a new boss. And that was announced in a thread in a forum with hardly any traffic. There is still not a site wide sticky announcing what is going on. I can get an email from the JREF every year on my birthday but they can't send me one to tell me they are saying goodbye. I'm going to guess that most members won't even know we are moving until we have moved.

lionking asked some questions of Icerat a couple of pages ago. Icerat has chosen not to answer those questions, even though he has been in and out of the thread several times since they were posted. He probably didn't see them. But the process has been anything but transparent right now.

Do you agree with everything that JREF, Admins and Mods have ever posted? I doubt it. All of those post opinions on many topics as members. Did that seem an insurmountable bar to your membership here?

If the JREF, Admins and Mods believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy and that no planes hit the twin towers then no I would not be a member here.

Why, then, is icerat an exception?

He isn't.

Not even a hint of a suggestion at this point.

Hence the word "if." lionking asked some questions. They haven't been addressed yet.

Short term no, longer term perhaps. Certainly not a consideration at this point where continuation is the priority.

It isn't a consideration for you. But you can consider anything you like.

Nobody is forcing you to do so. If you dislike whatever this forum becomes, you can leave. It seems perverse to do so without waiting to see what it becomes.

Lame dude. This thread is the only real place we can discuss the changes. You are welcome to cross your fingers and hope for the best. I don't think that there is anything wrong, right now, asking questions or expressing concerns. Nobody is forcing you to read my posts. It seems perverse for all these people to be jumping up and down whenever someone wants to raise a point that isn't lock/stock and barrel in line with "the party line." Let people say what they need to say.

 

[banquetbear]

I was specific in that post and the one right before that.

...I quoted the question you asked me. I'll do it again.

"Then answer the question clearly: what is it about Icerat's posting history that you think disqualifies him or make him less suitable as a host for this website ?"

I answered that question as clear as I could. You did ask another question:

"What is it that you think will interfere with the normal functioning of this forum ?"

And I answered that seperately. This is the entirety of the post I responded to:

Then answer the question clearly: what is it about Icerat's posting history that you think disqualifies him or make him less suitable as a host for this website ? What is it that you think will interfere with the normal functioning of this forum ?

I can even provide screenshots if you require it. Those specific things you are claiming were in your post that I responded to do not exist. I answered your question.

Well of course when you ignore part of my post, that's bound to happen.

Nothing was ignored. Citations have been provided.

It's the only response that will do:

There are plenty of other ways to respond than inventing a position for me and stating that this is how I feel.

since you refuse to answer my question,

Untrue.

I can only assume the answer.

You assume incorrectly.

And since what little you've told me so far lacks any specifics, I can only surmise that you have a vague impression rather than a specific objection.

I gave you specifics. You then chose to debate those specifics, which led me to debate those specifics, which led to the whole derail being sent to AAH. I have my doubts that Icerat shares the same skeptical mission as the JREF. Saying more than that is unfair to Icerat right now, so thats all you are going to get. That doesn't mean I don't have specific objections. It does mean that there is nothing to be gained by me expressing my opinions on that subject any more than I have already at this moment.

I'm registered to these forums because of the mission of the JREF: and have no interest in being part of a board that doesn't. have it. The name on the wall is changing. We simply want to know whose name is going to be on the new wall and what they represent.

 

[newyorkguy]

Heh no shortcut just count, or copy/paste into Excel if it's too long to count.

Copy/paste into Excel? That works pretty well. It's fast. (Btw, there's 204 posters now.)

 

[temporalillusion]

lionking asked some questions of Icerat a couple of pages ago. Icerat has chosen not to answer those questions, even though he has been in and out of the thread several times since they were posted. He probably didn't see them.

He has answered them though, a number of times. To find them easier just do a search of this thread or the "Who would like Jeff Wagg" thread by his username.

If you feel a FAQ thread is necessary then you could come up with a list of questions and post it and I (and others I'm sure) would help find the most relevant posts with answers.

But the process has been anything but transparent right now.

I think there's two reasons for that. First is because from the JREF side there was a bunch of statements and actions that was basically scrambling before they decided a process was the best way to go, so now they have a process (or at least the appearance of one) to determine what they'll do going forward, and have called for options prior to their deadline. Not really a process, and definitely not transparent, but then I wouldn't really expect the internal machinations and decision making to be transparent anyway. But certainly not handled very well IMO, that's what happens when one shoots from the hip.

Second there's the proposal icerat has been putting together. I think that's been very transparent. Jeff and Darat and everyone else has posted any information they have. Icerats shared his personal information, background, qualifications, desires and goals. They've all shared their intentions on how it could look moving forward as best they can in the context of what they know. But being open about a vague target (and a moving one at that) will look vague just because the target is vague.

That and not putting the cart before the horse. Deciding a legal organization, who's on the board doing what, etc doesn't make much sense to do currently when it's not even official what will happen.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

I'll never understand people's need to enforce some standards onto a frickin' internet forum as if they are negotiating it's membership in the UN or something.

The hyperbolic language some people use as if this message board is a country or a law enforcement agency or something with real power over people's actual lives borders on silly sometimes. And fully invades and occupies silly other times.

This board is cannot punish you, banned members are not political dissidents you have to stage candle light vigils for, and being held to rules on a message board is not some massive human rights violation that requires sanctions.

This times eight million.

Also, I heard if you want to sign up at the new forum you have to buy a case of Nutrilite bars from Icerat.

 

[Planigale]

The key things I like about the forum and why I read here and occasionally post are
1) Attack the argument not the arguer. No ad hominem is essential.
2) No swearing. Not essential, but frankly it adds nothing to the argument; makes me uncomfortable, and is often sexist at least subliminally.

I would like these themes to persist in the new forum.