Future of the Forum

[Foolmewunz]

Edited by Lisa Simpson: 

Edited to remove quoted post.

Where's Phil Plait when you need him?

Lionking is asking questions directly that many of us are discussing behind closed doors so good on 'im for his directness - a notable Aussie attribute, I've found.

I've been making my views rather clear but accentuating what I think are the "positives" that I'm hoping to hear... that a troika of the old guard (Jeff, Lisa and Darat or at least 2/3 of them) will take over "management" of the boards. If Locknar and LashL are "with this" and stay on or even get elevated positions, I'm okay with that.

But to be clear, and I'd love to say "it's not personal" but it sort of is.... I am not comfortable if the actual operation and policies of the new forums are under the direction of Icerat. It's not the "too little" history. It's the specific history.

 

[jsfisher]

I am not comfortable if the actual operation and policies of the new forums are under the direction of Icerat. It's not the "too little" history. It's the specific history.

Would you be comfortable with a different "owner" of the forums (let's say Jeff) with icerat as the IT provider?

 

[steenkh]

Unfortunately, how we want the forum to be run, who we trust, and who we do not trust, will not be part of the closed-door deliberations that the JREF is holding with the involved parties unless somebody alerts them.

We cannot know if Sharon reads this forum regularly, and she is the only one who has given indication that she reads and values the forum. Sharon has explicitly stated that only mail sent to her at JREF will be considered officially.

ETA: Has anybody here been in contact with the JREF directly?

 

[Foolmewunz]

Would you be comfortable with a different "owner" of the forums (let's say Jeff) with icerat as the IT provider?

Quite. I have stated here and elsewhere that Icerat or one of his entities as the sub-contractor would be fine by me. It's as owner/director that I'm in disagreement.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Unfortunately, how we want the forum to be run, who we trust, and who we do not trust, will not be part of the closed-door deliberations that the JREF is holding with the involved parties unless somebody alerts them.

We cannot know if Sharon reads this forum regularly, and she is the only one who has given indication that she reads and values the forum. Sharon has explicitly stated that only mail sent to her at JREF will be considered officially.

ETA: Has anybody here been in contact with the JREF directly?

Darat reads these comments and is in contact with the JREF. I'm pretty sure Jeff's now following rather closely, too. We are not really filing suggestions for Sharon on the JREF to consider; not since about day 3. We are trying to voice our concerns (and our support, though it may not be apparent) to Darat and Jeff (or "Darat or Jeff", perhaps, for some posters).

The frustration is understandable, I feel, on the part of long term and active members. But the reasons for it are also understandable. All of this was done very precipitously and much of the discussion and negotiation should've been handled through channels and behind the scenes. Were I Darat or Jeff, right now, and working on a transition plan of some sort, I'd be playing the finer details close to my vest. There are things you just don't include in your press kit when the negotiations aren't finalized. (Ask Ben Radford about that.)

 

[Belz...]

It's as owner/director that I'm in disagreement.

Why, specifically ?

 

[Andy_Ross]

...I hate it when people use the phrase "are you saying."

I'm saying what I said. Go read my words.



It actually does touch on skepticism, in a rather important way. I've had one discussion with Icerat, concerning his belief that Flight MH370 went north not south, was hijacked by terrorists and is either in hiding or crashed. Under the JREF banner I was confident that this messageboard stood for critical thinking. With Icerat at the helm, we honestly don't know what the new boards (if they eventuate) will stand for.



You are entitled to feel any way you like.

So you beef ids Icerat dared to have a different opinion on something that is unknown?

OK.

 

[madurobob]

Quite. I have stated here and elsewhere that Icerat or one of his entities as the sub-contractor would be fine by me. It's as owner/director that I'm in disagreement.

Why? And, what do you mean by owner/director?

That is, even icerat has said the new forum would likely be set up as some sort of non-profit with a board that managed it. He would surely be a member of that board, and own the HW and the SW license, and be responsible for finances. I see that as a good thing - it aligns his interests with ours in ensuring an enduring, lively forum. Anything done to drive away members will be bad for everyone involved. Where is the problem here?

I have significant problems with icerats stance on MLM. I have zero problems with him being involved with the future of the forum as described.

 

[banquetbear]

So you beef ids Icerat dared to have a different opinion on something that is unknown?

...not at all!

But thanks for playing! The moderator has stated what is and isn't allowed to be discussed in this thread: and as I can't answer your question without violating the mod directive I will just simply state you are incorrect.

 

[Belz...]

Then answer the question clearly: what is it about Icerat's posting history that you think disqualifies him or make him less suitable as a host for this website ? What is it that you think will interfere with the normal functioning of this forum ?

 

[superfreddy]

I have some financial related questions:

-The forum has intrinsic value which can be turned into future cash flows. Who owns that?
-It's good that icerat is willing to step in and save the forum from oblivion. Is he getting paid for that effort? if so, is it possible to release that information for transparency's sake?

 

[Hokulele]

Why? And, what do you mean by owner/director?

That is, even icerat has said the new forum would likely be set up as some sort of non-profit with a board that managed it. He would surely be a member of that board, and own the HW and the SW license, and be responsible for finances. I see that as a good thing - it aligns his interests with ours in ensuring an enduring, lively forum. Anything done to drive away members will be bad for everyone involved. Where is the problem here?

I have significant problems with icerats stance on MLM. I have zero problems with him being involved with the future of the forum as described.

He has indicated that one of the ways the forum could be supported is by cross-marketing with members' businesses. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but who gets to vet which businesses, and what those cross-marketing efforts mean? For example, if Christopher Browne signs up as a member, is he allowed to promote his psychic business here? (Personally, I would be fine with that as "these aren't the droids he is looking for".) Is he allowed to use his membership on the As-Yet-Unnamed-Forum as an endorsement on his own website? (I would have a huge problem with that.)

Would icerat be allowed to use his position on the board of one of the most active forums regarding skepticism as a promotional tool for his business selling motivational tools and services to Amway recruits?

 

[Trakar]

My main concern is that this forum has a certain existing "respectability" that is associated with both the manner of its operation, the quality/character of the participation that it allows to persist upon its message boards. I don't well know Icerat, but I don't have any issues that cause me concern about him and certainly haven't heard anything so far that would cause me to worry about such.

Ultimately, after looking around, I haven't found any forums that are suitable, full-fledged replacements, and I understand that this new forum (and I really feel that it is best to think of this as a new forum and not a continuation or mere movement of this forum to a new location) will try to mold itself into a form that the existing JREF forum members will find familiar, pleasing and acceptable. Icerat seems to have made the offer to assist in good-faith, and while I don't really know him, I appreciate the effort to help recreate an environment that has been a significant focus of my time over the last decade.

Once this forum is gone, it is gone. I will give the new forum a try, if seems interesting and worth my time, I will continue with it. If not, there is no great loss in such a meager investment of effort and trust. It would seem more productive to consider and promote what can be done to tighten the loopholes and produce a forum that we will all respect and enjoy, rather than worry about what might be lost when this forum closes and the new one starts, because there is nothing we can do to prevent this forum from closing, but there is plenty we can offer to help the new forum to become a place we can enjoy and participate on (...or not).

 

[madurobob]

Would icerat be allowed to use his position on the board of one of the most active forums regarding skepticism as a promotional tool for his business selling motivational tools and services to Amway recruits?

How long do you think the forums would remain active? We'd all abandon the place in a matter of days.

As for cross promotion of businesses... I'm honestly not worried and for the same reasons. I am confident we will have a board or directors that would approve/reject such advertisers based on a clearly stated set of criteria. That board will have a sincere interest in keeping the forums active and engaging to the members.

I see that as a happy contrast to the current owners...

 

[madurobob]

I have some financial related questions:

-The forum has intrinsic value which can be turned into future cash flows. Who owns that?
-It's good that icerat is willing to step in and save the forum from oblivion. Is he getting paid for that effort? if so, is it possible to release that information for transparency's sake?

Its worth consideration. But, I'd be very surprised if the board can be kept afloat without member donations on an ongoing basis. I don't think we need to worry too much about what happens if it turns a profit.

But, I agree that transparency on finances should be something written into the by laws in the new organization.

 

[Wolrab]

Anyone get in contact with jref.com?

 

[madurobob]

Anyone get in contact with jref.com?

Lots of folks have. A JREF employee started this thread, and has asked for input to be sent directly to her. A decision from them is due soon based, at least in part, on that input. Check Sharon's post for her email contact info.

ETA
Oh - oops... dot com! *nevermind*

....

 

[banquetbear]

Then answer the question clearly: what is it about Icerat's posting history that you think disqualifies him or make him less suitable as a host for this website ?

...I answered that question clearly. If Icerat's only input into the boards is as host for the website, I don't really see that as a problem. Other people do have a problem, but I can only speak for myself.

But I'm not sure that that will be Icerats only involvement. Which is why when Icerat posted something that looked like he would have a greater involvement in things than just hosting the site, people asked questions.

I signed up to the Randi boards, because I believe in the mission of the JREF Foundation. I have no reason to sign up to the boards at their new home. I'm a member of many different forums where I tend to spend way more time. I don't need to register at a forum where the figurehead is diametrically opposed to the way I think. I'm not registered at Stormfront. And until we know what the new boards stand for I'm not going to register there either.

What is it that you think will interfere with the normal functioning of this forum ?

Very shortly these forums will no longer exist. There will be no "normal functioning" of these forums. I'm aware the "plan" is to simply remove the JREF banner and keep on rolling along, and I have no doubt that that is most probably what will happen. But there is nothing that guarantees that will happen. For all I know Icerat could take exception to what I have said here and ban me once we hit the new servers. Can you guarantee that that won't happen?

 

[Belz...]

...I answered that question clearly. If Icerat's only input into the boards is as host for the website, I don't really see that as a problem. Other people do have a problem, but I can only speak for myself.

But I'm not sure that that will be Icerats only involvement. Which is why when Icerat posted something that looked like he would have a greater involvement in things than just hosting the site, people asked questions.

Sorry but I don't believe this answers my question, clearly or otherwise. Assuming Icerat does have more involvement than just hosting the website, what is your specific objections to him being in that position ? What, specifically, in his behaviour makes you think he would be bad for the forum ?

 

[Darat]

According to some people that could happen here now banquet bear.