Rincewind
Philosopher
Why did I hear "Grab them by the b***s, and their hearts and minds will follow" when I read that?
Why did I hear "Grab them by the b***s, and their hearts and minds will follow" when I read that?
Rincewind
Philosopher
Hi Ocelot,
Thank you kindly for that.
As I mentioned, as I'm not a mathematician I used simple arithmetic to get a feel for what looked like ludicrous numbers.
Now you've explained what the population calculations ought to be, so thanks.
And as soon as my brains stop leaking out of my ears, I'll read it more thoroughly...
Rincewind
Philosopher
@lpetrich/HansMustermann,
I did have a very sketchy knowledge of the Hyksos, so your contributions here have piqued my interest in searching more deeply. Thanks!
A couple of additional related things/questions:
IIRC the Sea People were busy around 1200 BCE? (Sorry - you already confirmed that)
The Philistines were descended from the Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples, and took over the coastal plain?
I will be exploring this, but would be interested in your views - did the Phoenicians descend from the Philistines, or is it just a coincidence in the names?
I did see a map of the area with an agricultural perspective set way back when. (Sorry, don't seem to have noted the address) It clearly showed that the Philistines had the smarts - the coastal plain had the most fertile land, and the hill country (where the Israelites were) was more marginal. So much for God's "Land flowing with milk and honey"! Ol' Abe would have done much better to have remained in Mesopotamia!
I did have a very sketchy knowledge of the Hyksos, so your contributions here have piqued my interest in searching more deeply. Thanks!
A couple of additional related things/questions:
IIRC the Sea People were busy around 1200 BCE? (Sorry - you already confirmed that)
The Philistines were descended from the Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples, and took over the coastal plain?
I will be exploring this, but would be interested in your views - did the Phoenicians descend from the Philistines, or is it just a coincidence in the names?
I did see a map of the area with an agricultural perspective set way back when. (Sorry, don't seem to have noted the address) It clearly showed that the Philistines had the smarts - the coastal plain had the most fertile land, and the hill country (where the Israelites were) was more marginal. So much for God's "Land flowing with milk and honey"! Ol' Abe would have done much better to have remained in Mesopotamia!
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Rincewind
Philosopher
OK Paul,
I agree with your final statement... Yeah, I know, Shock! Horror!
Now here's a quick test brain teaser for you:
1) For your faith to be true, the Exodus must be true.
2) For the Exodus to be true, there must be evidence.
3) As there is zero evidence for the Exodus, what conclusion is inevitable?
Thanks for your answer.
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
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Then please do point out as an astronomer how would a star pinpoint the location of a house even with modern instruments, given the rotation of the earth. Even months after the original burst.
No, really, please do explain, if you've got anything. That's gotta be good.
Sorry, but anyone can spew such useless answers, and unsurprisingly most apologists do. If you want it to be of any use, please explain how. I'm sick and tired of the kind of half-assed apologetics that just postulate that some meaning or explanation exists, but then don't actually have one.
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Exodus - and the rest of the Pentateuch - were taken away, as historical accounts, at least - by Voltaire, Paine, Gibbon and other writers of the Enlightenment. For some of the anachronisms in these "Central points of the faith" see http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/sweet-phony-moses-883.html; but all these observations were made already two hundred years ago.
ETA See also Some Mistakes of Moses Robert Green Ingersoll, 1833-1899.
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HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
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@Ipetrich:
I suppose the story could be a mash-up of distorted bits of pieces from a few very different stories, from very different people, and from times that are half a millennium apart or more. And essentially inventing the rest of the story to glue them together.
Kinda like how nowadays you could use bits like the battle of Canae, the battle of Crecy or Agincourt (both involved funnelling the enemy and mowing them down with arrows), the American Civil War and Napoleon's problems with the Russian winter, as inspiration to write your own historical fiction novel or medieval fantasy novel or such. You certainly wouldn't be the first to do that.
It wouldn't even be something new even at that time, since the genre of historical fiction and using real places and events as inspiration is at least as old as the story of Wenamun, which is to say, it was itself invented already many centuries before someone mashed up the Exodus story.
So, yeah, it's not an implausible hypothesis by any means. It could have happened.
But, while an interesting discussion in its own right, that makes little difference to the discussion at hand. At that point, Exodus is still fiction, it's just been narrowed down to historical fiction.
I suppose the story could be a mash-up of distorted bits of pieces from a few very different stories, from very different people, and from times that are half a millennium apart or more. And essentially inventing the rest of the story to glue them together.
Kinda like how nowadays you could use bits like the battle of Canae, the battle of Crecy or Agincourt (both involved funnelling the enemy and mowing them down with arrows), the American Civil War and Napoleon's problems with the Russian winter, as inspiration to write your own historical fiction novel or medieval fantasy novel or such. You certainly wouldn't be the first to do that.
It wouldn't even be something new even at that time, since the genre of historical fiction and using real places and events as inspiration is at least as old as the story of Wenamun, which is to say, it was itself invented already many centuries before someone mashed up the Exodus story.
So, yeah, it's not an implausible hypothesis by any means. It could have happened.
But, while an interesting discussion in its own right, that makes little difference to the discussion at hand. At that point, Exodus is still fiction, it's just been narrowed down to historical fiction.
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Paul Bethke
Philosopher
You are really quite a person—your colours are really showing NOW.
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
Well we still have to examine what you have presented, a counter presentation—this I am unable to do, because I would have to consult dozens of writings—but then again what sort of evidence would suffice? So in the meantime I will console myself with what the Scriptures present.
But again your presentation is very good.
Science. You know.....testable, repeatable, falsifiable science. That's all.
Rincewind
Philosopher
One simple piece of evidence:
Apparently around two million people lived at Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years - your book of magic claims that.
Go find some trace of this.....
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
My book says they travelled around—stopping at some 42 different places during those 38 years—not in one place for 38 years!
►Num 33:1 Here are the stages in the journey of the Israelites when they came out of Egypt by divisions under the leadership of Moses and Aaron.
Num 33:2 At the LORD's command Moses recorded the stages in their journey. This is their journey by stages:
Num 33:3 The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. They marched out boldly in full view of all the Egyptians,
Num 33:4 who were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them; for the LORD had brought judgment on their gods.
Num 33:5 The Israelites left Rameses and camped at Succoth.
Num 33:6 They left Succoth and camped at Etham, on the edge of the desert.
Num 33:7 They left Etham, turned back to Pi Hahiroth, to the east of Baal Zephon, and camped near Migdol.
Num 33:8 They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had traveled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.
Num 33:9 They left Marah and went to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there.
Num 33:10 They left Elim and camped by the Red Sea.
Num 33:11 They left the Red Sea and camped in the Desert of Sin.
Num 33:12 They left the Desert of Sin and camped at Dophkah.
Num 33:13 They left Dophkah and camped at Alush.
Num 33:14 They left Alush and camped at Rephidim, where there was no water for the people to drink.
Num 33:15 They left Rephidim and camped in the Desert of Sinai.
Num 33:16 They left the Desert of Sinai and camped at Kibroth Hattaavah.
Num 33:17 They left Kibroth Hattaavah and camped at Hazeroth.
Num 33:18 They left Hazeroth and camped at Rithmah.
Num 33:19 They left Rithmah and camped at Rimmon Perez.
Num 33:20 They left Rimmon Perez and camped at Libnah.
Num 33:21 They left Libnah and camped at Rissah.
Num 33:22 They left Rissah and camped at Kehelathah.
Num 33:23 They left Kehelathah and camped at Mount Shepher.
Num 33:24 They left Mount Shepher and camped at Haradah.
Num 33:25 They left Haradah and camped at Makheloth.
Num 33:26 They left Makheloth and camped at Tahath.
Num 33:27 They left Tahath and camped at Terah.
Num 33:28 They left Terah and camped at Mithcah.
Num 33:29 They left Mithcah and camped at Hashmonah.
Num 33:30 They left Hashmonah and camped at Moseroth.
Num 33:31 They left Moseroth and camped at Bene Jaakan.
Num 33:32 They left Bene Jaakan and camped at Hor Haggidgad.
Num 33:33 They left Hor Haggidgad and camped at Jotbathah.
Num 33:34 They left Jotbathah and camped at Abronah.
Num 33:35 They left Abronah and camped at Ezion Geber.
Num 33:36 They left Ezion Geber and camped at Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.
Num 33:37 They left Kadesh and camped at Mount Hor, on the border of Edom.
Num 33:38 At the LORD's command Aaron the priest went up Mount Hor, where he died on the first day of the fifth month of the fortieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt.
Num 33:39 Aaron was a hundred and twenty-three years old when he died on Mount Hor.
Num 33:40 The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev of Canaan, heard that the Israelites were coming.
Num 33:41 They left Mount Hor and camped at Zalmonah.
Num 33:42 They left Zalmonah and camped at Punon.
Num 33:43 They left Punon and camped at Oboth.
Num 33:44 They left Oboth and camped at Iye Abarim, on the border of Moab.
Num 33:45 They left Iyim and camped at Dibon Gad.
Num 33:46 They left Dibon Gad and camped at Almon Diblathaim.
Num 33:47 They left Almon Diblathaim and camped in the mountains of Abarim, near Nebo.
Num 33:48 They left the mountains of Abarim and camped on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 33:49 There on the plains of Moab they camped along the Jordan from Beth Jeshimoth to Abel Shittim.
Num 33:50 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses,
Num 33:51 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan,
Num 33:52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places.
I would be interested to be able to measure the entire distance they travelled—maybe someone has done this –will look into it.
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Paul Bethke
Philosopher
Well I would not know where to begin—but there may be some boffins out there who could give a reasonable answer—any way let me depart from this thread—just in case the Slowvehicle starts his antics again!
I found something that is quite interesting—thanks Google---
►http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm
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The name Phoenician is the name the Greeks gave the Canaanites. The Romans called them the Punics.
Much like Germany is called that in English but it is called Alemania in Spanish and Allemagne in French and the Germans call themselves Deutchland.
Germania was called so in Roman because Germanicus conquered it. It is called Alemania/Allemagne in Spanish/French because as far as they were concerned the main tribes there were the Alemannis.
The Greeks called the Canaanites Foinikis (Φοίνικες) which in English is Phoenicians because they traded with them and one of the main imported products was the Purple dye (φοινός = Foinos). The Romans called them Punics (Pūnicus) as a Romanized corruption of the Greek word Foiniki.
The Philistines were of Aegean probably Minoan origins and not Semites like the Canaanites. They did conquer the coastal area and were a very civilized peoples albeit bellicose.
In fact the archaeology of Israel attests to the vibrancy of their advanced artifacts and jewelry and so forth compared to the very drab and mundane artifacts and so forth of the highlands area which was inhabited by marginal poorer Canaanites.
The richer Canaanites were centered around Byblos, Tyre and Sidon in what is now Lebanon. Later they also established a much more vibrant center in Carthage in what is now Tunisia in North Africa. Much like New York surpassed old York, so did Carthage surpass in every way the old Canaanite/Phoenician old capital cities.
Over the centuries the Philistines and Phoenicians mingled and the Philistines were absorbed within the overall makeup of the people of the lands of the region. Gaza and Ashkelon and Ashdod were major Philistine cities.
As a testament to the bias and vilification that the Bible can generate, the word Philistine in the English dictionary today has a meaning of a brutish ignorant dullard. It is even used regularly on TV and in movies and in literature writing. Even educated people who should know better use the word in lectures and other venues.
However, the archaeology proves that in fact the Philistine culture was much more advanced and vibrant than the one of the Israelites. But since the Philistines were the villains of the
Abraham of course never existed. The Israelites were not descended from 12 brothers who were born from 4 mothers two of whom were sisters who were the first cousins of the father who was the son of a man who also married his cousin and was in turn the son of a man who married his half sister.
All this is just an absurd and preposterous IMPOSSIBILITY. It is much like the story of Lot and his daughters fornicating with him to repopulate when by the very same story’s narrative there was a city just a few miles away and their uncle was also just a few miles in the other direction. The whole point of the story of Lot was to denigrate and insult and vilify the Moabites who were also Canaanites.
This is another example of the vitiating effect of the Bible on people’s minds. Believing in ludicrous notions such as the above when people would not even entertain such notions in other settings is a reminder of how the Bible corrupts the mind.
Would anyone take seriously for a second anyone who claims that Romans were descended from two brothers called Romulus and Remus?
Take England for example. In England there were tens of different tribes all fighting and bickering and even spoke different dialects. They were conquered by Romans, Vikings, Angles, Normans, Saxons and so on and so forth. The English language went through at least 4 different stages of evolution and absorbed at least 4 different foreign languages.
Would anyone entertain the idea that the English today are descendants of Arthur who lived in a holy city called Camelot?
Why would Israel be different when it actually had a very parallel evolutionary history. The Canaanites-Philistines were just like the Anglo-Saxons and later much like in England they were invaded by Hittites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Arabs.
So, no, the Judeans were only a small SUB-GROUP of Canaanites who were later given a little importance as Assyrian vassals when they invaded the area and destroyed the major centers of the Canaanites who themselves where vassals to the Egyptians. The Assyrians set up Jerusalem as a little vassal chiefdom to serve as a BUFFER ZONE between them and Egypt.
Israel/Samaria which should be more properly called Omria or Beth Omri as it is in fact called in archaeological records was just another Canaanite little kingdom which was under the Imperial rule of Egypt.
Biblical Judaism (as opposed to YHWism) was never the religion of the region until the Persian Empire conquered the entire region including Assyria and Egypt.
Even the bible attests to that. And even then it did not take full hold and almost disintegrated when the Greeks took over.
It was kept alive among the cohenim who as good Persian vassals kept on resisting the conquering Hellenic culture. Later a powerful priestly Persian family called the Hasmoneans managed a rebellion with guerrilla style raids against the Seleucids (Syrian Greeks) aided by the Ptolomies (Egyptian Greeks) and the Romans who were by that time an upstart power.
They established a Jewish THEOCRACY and went around enforcing the religion on the subjects of the short lived kingdom. The Romans later moved in and that was the end of it.
Just think about it for a second. As the Biblical story goes, Joshua armed with YHWH’s Torah conquers the land and ethnically cleanses it. Yet we have verse after verse repeated ad nauseam of how the Jews kept converting to worshiping the gods of the people of the land. Weren’t the people supposedly wiped out? How does it make sense that a conquering victorious people would then turn around and start worshiping the gods of the people they supposedly made extinct?
In the story Solomon was given DIVINE WISDOM directly from YHWH and had a hotline of communication with YHWH who dwelled right there in the temple he made for him next door to his own palace. How can this MIRACULOUSLY WISE man who was handed his wisdom as a divine gift directly by hand so to speak, person to person from YHWH, then turn around and start worshiping other supposedly fake idols and DEFEATED gods of defeated people who supposedly did not exist any longer?
King after king ever after also repeats the story. How can the kings of the victorious YHWH keep on worshiping idols in preference to the real living god who they have direct communications with?
Also, in reference to the Exodus myth, consider the Hebrews’ action of making a cow out of gold and worshiping it. It was not in fact the people who fabricated the idol it was Aaron himself.
Now Aaron was a firsthand witness to all the magic and mayhem that YHWH wreaked upon the Egyptians. He and his people supposedly saw a whole sea being parted to let them pass and drown the army of the most powerful Empire on earth at the time. They saw pillars of fire at night and pillars of smoke during the day acting as a GPS system to guide them to their destination. They witnessed the wrath and power of YHWH and even heard his thundering words.
YET…. After all this, when Moses turns his eyes for a few days, they decide they need to fabricate a cow and worship it instead of this almighty amazing living god who they saw with their very own eyes and heard with their very own ears and experienced his wrath and anger and protection and so on and so forth.
And what is most incredible is that Aaron himself fabricates the idol and then when Moses rebukes him he lies and says that he just put the gold in and presto by magic the idol came out and made sounds. YHWH must have been an extremely unimpressive deity if a golden calf is more compelling of worship than he was even while in the midst of all that COLLECTIVE REVELATION to all those Hebrews.
This is something I call a Telltale Testimonial To The Tall Tale© (T6). It just does not make sense even to a retarded moronic cretin.
However, if you approach the whole thing with an eye for indications of PROPAGANDA and myth-making for the purposes of social control, then many T6 reveal themselves.
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I would like you to go to any army base you have near you. Ask to see some logistics officer. Ask him what it would take to organize the movements of over 2.1M people around a desert for over 38 years to move around over 42 different sites.
Or ask a tour organizer what it would take to organize a camping trip for 2.1M people as above.
Water, food, sewage, clothing, tents, shoes, wood for fire, material for medical care etc. etc.
Now if you say all this was a miracle then I ask again..... why did YHWH not just zap them to where they were supposed to end up instead of going through with all that DRAMA.
If you say to teach them a lesson, then I remind you that they were apparently not very impressed with the teacher because the moment he turned his gaze they started worshiping COWS made out of gold they fabricated right in front of themselves using their very own earrings which I have no idea where they got if they were oppressed slaves.
Or maybe he just wanted to torture a few people for 40 years, having snakes bite them and quails poison them and earthquakes swallow some of them who rebel against all the oppression and even ordering some to kill some.
If YHWH was such an amazing god why does he spend page after page explaining to Moses how to recognize a leper. Why does he not just cure all of the lepers and wipe out the bacteria that cause leprosy in the first place? But then after explaining to Moses how to identify a leper, does YHWH teach Moses how to make the extremely simple cure called Penicillin? No.... he tells Moses to throw the poor people out of the camp and BURN their possessions and never to let them back again.
The amount of absurd things one after the other that can be discerned once someone examines the text with a rational mindset is astounding.
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Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Does this mean something to you, in the original bethekese?
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
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This.
Not really.
A good suggestion. How about it, MG1962?
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Thank you, Leumas!
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
To organise the movements of 2 million would be quite a feat—to teach people basic hygiene is the first step in keeping sickness away.
God was preparing the Hebrews for a time when they would inhabit the land he predetermined they should have.
Food and water were provided as you know—manna and water were their daily diet—manna being the best food a person could have.
Their shoes did not wear out, nor their clothing.
The forty years was necessary to weed out their superstations they had while in Egypt—hence the calf.
So it appears that a new generation would have to replace the old one that came out of Egypt.
YHWH seems to work in a natural way as to teach people—no purpose in taking away the learning curve.
God did it in a way that we can see the results of trying to get a people to live in a way that God could be present among them---he gave laws that would guide them when applied.