• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Dr. Diane Powell and Savant children with PSI??

Lukas1986

Critical Thinker
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Messages
302
Here is Dr. Diane Powell who claims she will go after the James Randi Prize:

The 100% accuracy has already been seen with autistic prodigious savants. Whatever their talent is they are usually 100% accurate. Therefore if you give then 2 five digit numbers to multiply together they will be accurate on the first try, or if they do calendar calculations they will be able on the first try to tell you the days of the week for any date in the past of future you can give them even though they often can’t multiply 7 x 4 or think there are 10 minutes in an hours and 10 seconds in a minute.

Were the non-verbal autistic children accurate? This is what Dr. Powell stated in an interview on June 12th,

Believe it or not but I have data that could mute the Great Randi challenge. I know that is quite a statement but I do. To meet that challenge you have to have it reviewed scientifically and they want a recommendation from some science journal. They want to see it in print somewhere.

This is fresh. I just did these experiments last month. That’s how fresh this information is… I have digit sequences that are 18 and 19 numbers long and 100% accuracy. The stats on that are incredible. I even had this one sequence where it’s 162 digits Out of 162 digits there was only 7 mistakes, and when told that is the wrong number this autistic child got it right on the second go. The stats on that are just staggering. That’s why I am saying it is well beyond the great Amazing Randi challenge.

Taken from: http://www.presidentialufo.com/comp...ticles-a-papers/546-a-nobel-prize-for-woo-woo

Her research, tests and results in a abstract. This is all I could find:

By contrast, brief reports by physicians that are suggestive of psi in autistic savants have been ignored or criticized. The psi ability most frequently reported by parents to the author in her research has been telepathy, especially in nonverbal children. In 2013, the author received three homemade videos of a nonverbal, nine year-old, severely autistic girl that were claimed to demonstrate telepathy. The videos were intriguing, but scientifically insufficient. Two therapists reported telepathic experiences with the girl, creating the opportunity to test both. The author conducted two controlled, two-hour research sessions with “Therapist A”, and one two-hour controlled research session with “Therapist B”. Randomized numbers, sentences, fake words, and visual images were presented to the therapists out of view of the girl, who was asked to “read the therapist’s mind.” The therapists were asked to write their own verbal descriptions of the images for comparison to the girl’s answers. Random numbers were generated for mathematical equations. The girl was asked to give all the numbers involved in the equations and duplicate the answers generated by the author with a calculator. The therapist and child could not be tested in separate rooms, because even subtle changes to the environment are very distracting and disturbing for a child with severe autism. The experimental set-up required the therapists and child to work with a divider between them. The child typed her answers after choosing them from a stencil. To assess for any possible visual and/or auditory cueing, five high definition point-of-view (POV) cameras and three microphones were strategically placed in the experimental space to capture coverage of the entire room, the therapist and child, and their separate workspaces. All cameras were synchronized and time-stamped. Data from the first session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on three out of twenty image descriptions containing up to nine letters each, 60 to 100% accuracy on all three of the five-letter nonsense words, and 100% accuracy on two random numbers: one eight digits and the other nine. Data from the second session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on six out of twelve equations with 15 to 19 digits each, 100% accuracy on seven out of 20 image descriptions containing up to six letters, and between 81 to 100% accuracy on sentences of between 18 and 35 letters. Data from the session with Therapist B showed 100% accuracy with five out of twenty random numbers up to six digits in length, and 100% accuracy with five out of twelve image descriptions containing up to six letters. There was no evidence of cueing or fraud.

Taken from: http://www.parapsych.org/uploaded_f..._convention_abstracts_of_presented_papers.pdf
Pages: 25-26 in the pdf.

Tell me what you think of it. I am also skeptical of it but I would like to know your opinions on this. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Well, for one thing, the way they use "100% accuracy" is rather misleading. For example:
100% accuracy on three out of twenty image descriptions
What this actually means is 15% accuracy. They got three right; they got 17 wrong. Granted, the claims are still quite remarkable if true...but given how they're twisting statistical language to try to make the results sound more amazing than they actually are, I'd be quite skeptical of the rest, too.
 
All manner of mentally-disabled people exhibit various "savant" behaviors... More than a few are able to replay complex musical pieces having heard them but one time...
This isn't "psychic", however.
 
Well, for one thing, the way they use "100% accuracy" is rather misleading. For example:
What this actually means is 15% accuracy. They got three right; they got 17 wrong. Granted, the claims are still quite remarkable if true...but given how they're twisting statistical language to try to make the results sound more amazing than they actually are, I'd be quite skeptical of the rest, too.
Kind of reminds me of the old Naked Gun line:
"Doctors say that Nordberg has a 50 - 50 chance of living, though there's only a 10 percent chance of that."
 
Thanks guys for the look into this. I also found this. It seems that Savants attracted paranormal explanations from the begging so its a quite old thing again:

Though supernatural concepts like reincarnation, ESP, and telepathy are rejected by mainstream science, Treffert claims that as many as 10% of autistic savants may have ESP. Reincarnation is mentioned as a possible explanation for savantism in at least one case.[14]

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome

Treffert was one of the people who was interested in Savants and build actually his whole career around it:

Darold A. Treffert (born 1932[1]) is a psychiatrist who specializes in the epidemiology of autism spectrum disorders and savant syndrome. He lives in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. He is on the staff at St. Agnes Hospital and serves on the Board of Trustees of Marian University. Treffert was a clinical professor at the University of Wisconsin Medical School. He is also a clinical professor at University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee.[2]

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darold_Treffert

I also read more about it and found out that the savant syndrome to some degree can be even induced to wealthy people. I think this more destroys this as some kind of PSI ability:

Savant syndrome results from damage to the left anterior temporal lobe, an area of the brain key in processing sensory input, recognizing objects and forming visual memories. Savant syndrome has been artificially replicated using transcranial magnetic stimulation to temporarily disable this area of the brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome

Thanks for looking into this guys. I think that the James Randi challenge is safe.
 
All manner of mentally-disabled people exhibit various "savant" behaviors... More than a few are able to replay complex musical pieces having heard them but one time...
This isn't "psychic", however.

That was my immediate take from the description - and it is not an unknown/previously undiscovered autism ability anyway.
 
And the line from Terry Pratchett: "Million to one chances happen nine out of ten times"

Probably misquoted, but something like that...

Sex panther by odeon. 60% of the time it works all the time.


I don't see how someone can claim that doing complex mathematical equations is paranormal.
 
I don't see how someone can claim that doing complex mathematical equations is paranormal.

She later on goes that those children which she tested have telepathic abilities because in the next abstract it is written they were able to read the mind of a therapist:

By contrast, brief reports by physicians that are suggestive of psi in autistic savants have been ignored or criticized. The psi ability most frequently reported by parents to the author in her research has been telepathy, especially in nonverbal children. In 2013, the author received three homemade videos of a nonverbal, nine year-old, severely autistic girl that were claimed to demonstrate telepathy. The videos were intriguing, but scientifically insufficient. Two therapists reported telepathic experiences with the girl, creating the opportunity to test both. The author conducted two controlled, two-hour research sessions with “Therapist A”, and one two-hour controlled research session with “Therapist B”. Randomized numbers, sentences, fake words, and visual images were presented to the therapists out of view of the girl, who was asked to “read the therapist’s mind.” The therapists were asked to write their own verbal descriptions of the images for comparison to the girl’s answers.

I do not want to be picky but only to show what she wants to show Randi and prove to Randi that there is a savant with autism who has telepathic powers. This is what she wants to prove to Randi.
 
...snip...

I do not want to be picky but only to show what she wants to show Randi and prove to Randi that there is a savant with autism who has telepathic powers. This is what she wants to prove to Randi.

Although she seems to be stating that good controls were in place for her experiments any actual challenge would have to be a new set of tests agreed by both parties.

Her descriptions of her experiments and controls are not complete enough to rule out some mundane information transmission or chance.
 
Well, for one thing, the way they use "100% accuracy" is rather misleading. For example:
What this actually means is 15% accuracy. They got three right; they got 17 wrong. ...snip...

I don't think that is what is being claimed for the results but the wording is not very clear:

"Data from the first session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on three out of twenty image descriptions containing up to nine letters each, 60 to 100% accuracy on all three of the five-letter nonsense words, and 100% accuracy on two random numbers: one eight digits and the other nine. Data from the second session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on six out of twelve equations with 15 to 19 digits each, 100% accuracy on seven out of 20 image descriptions containing up to six letters, and between 81 to 100% accuracy on sentences of between 18 and 35 letters. Data from the session with Therapist B showed 100% accuracy with five out of twenty random numbers up to six digits in length, and 100% accuracy with five out of twelve image descriptions containing up to six letters. There was no evidence of cueing or fraud..."
 
There was no evidence of cueing or fraud..."
No evidence of cueing? The therapist and child were in the same room, separated only by a divider. The child could hear the therapist and could almost certainly see some part of the therapist's body. There's enormous scope for picking up tiny cues right there, especially considering that autistic children often have very sensitive hearing.
It's Clever Hans, with children.
 
I don't think that is what is being claimed for the results but the wording is not very clear:

"Data from the first session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on three out of twenty image descriptions containing up to nine letters each, 60 to 100% accuracy on all three of the five-letter nonsense words, and 100% accuracy on two random numbers: one eight digits and the other nine. Data from the second session with Therapist A includes 100% accuracy on six out of twelve equations with 15 to 19 digits each, 100% accuracy on seven out of 20 image descriptions containing up to six letters, and between 81 to 100% accuracy on sentences of between 18 and 35 letters. Data from the session with Therapist B showed 100% accuracy with five out of twenty random numbers up to six digits in length, and 100% accuracy with five out of twelve image descriptions containing up to six letters. There was no evidence of cueing or fraud..."
I assume this "accuracy" refers to if a full length, given number or letter string was guessed by the child- therefore guessing correctly an entire number is considered 100% accuracy as the author writes it, even though this was done only a small part of the time and in certain, but not all sessions. It is a very interesting use of statistics... Under those conditions, I can guess with 100% accuracy the heads or tails of a coin flip, but only in 50% of the flips.
 
If the more outrageous claims are true and, give the clarity of the writing, I'm not exactly sure what they are, then this is one of the most revolutionary proofs of telepathy (or precognition -- even Saint Rhine could not figure out how to differentiated) ever recorded. Forget Randi. Go immediately for the Nobel prize in . . . um . . . something. :cool:
 
If the more outrageous claims are true and, give the clarity of the writing, I'm not exactly sure what they are, then this is one of the most revolutionary proofs of telepathy (or precognition -- even Saint Rhine could not figure out how to differentiated) ever recorded. Forget Randi. Go immediately for the Nobel prize in . . . um . . . something. :cool:

Chalataniconography is, I believe, the word you seek.
 
I read the abstract once more. Is this also a flaw?:

The experimental set-up required the therapists and child to work with a divider between them. The child typed her answers after choosing them from a stencil.

I am asking because I get this from it. That the girl after she read the mind of the therapist choose the right answer from the stencil or choose the right question??(confused). Or I am wrong here.. Cannot make heads or tails from the abstract.
 
sophia8 said:
There's enormous scope for picking up tiny cues right there, especially considering that autistic children often have very sensitive hearing.

Thanks for pointing this out. They are not only sensitive to hearing but to other things as well and they can "see" changes very well that means it helps them to pick up changes in the environment and people pretty well:

People with autism may:
Be overly sensitive in sight, hearing, touch, smell, or taste (for example, they may refuse to wear "itchy" clothes and become distressed if they are forced to wear the clothes)
Have unusual distress when routines are changed

Taken from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001526.htm

It is also here:

Response to sensory information:
Does not startle at loud noises
Has heightened or low senses of sight, hearing, touch, smell, or taste
May find normal noises painful and hold hands over ears
May withdraw from physical contact because it is overstimulating or overwhelming
Rubs surfaces, mouths or licks objects
Seems to have a heightened or low response to pain

Taken from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001526.htm
 
I read the abstract once more. Is this also a flaw?:



I am asking because I get this from it. That the girl after she read the mind of the therapist choose the right answer from the stencil or choose the right question??(confused). Or I am wrong here.. Cannot make heads or tails from the abstract.

A little too abstract I am guessing!!!
 
I found her motivation for this research. Like it was with everyone who pushes these kind of ideas it ends with a book:

Her research interests include the neuroscience of extraordinary states of human consciousness and anomalous experiences, discussed in detail in her 2008 book The ESP Enigma: A Scientific Case for Psychic Phenomena. In 2010, she was invited to participate in a private symposium on Wasan Island, sponsored by the Brueninger Foundation. Jeff Kripal, Sudhir Kakar and Dean Radin and others also attended. The 2012 book, Seriously Strange: Thinking Anew about Psychical Experiences, is an academic compilation that arose from this gathering with each participant contributing a chapter. She will be going to India in January 2013 to evaluate autistic savants as part of her ongoing research for her next book.

Taken from: http://dianehennacypowell.com/press-kit/formal-bio/
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom