Future of the Forum

[This is The End]

I want to add one thing here in the discussion of JREF vs the forums. The first I heard of the JREF as an entity was way back in the late 90s, via USENET - specifically sci.skeptic. I'd read posts there from people who were giving highlights of the latest developments in an MDC thread, or other noteworthy discussions. Eventually I wandered out of sci.skeptic and onto the jref forums. That got me interested in Randi's writings ; I started with "The Truth About Uri Gellar" and went from there.

As the years went on I'd make a comment here and there in some trivial thread, usually entertainment related. My postings were, on the whole, utter fluff and immaterial to the JREF mission. My /readings/, however, were directly on the JREF's stated message. I knew homeopathy was bunk, but it was from reading the threads involving Dr. Mas that I first learned precisely /why/ it was bunk, and how to explain that in layman's terms to others in real life. And I did so on numerous occasions (one of which caused me to lose a friend who was deeply invested in it).

There were countless other areas where I learned quite a bit about critical thinking and the like directly from the forums. About how easily even the brightest of people can fool themselves about what they're sure they saw with their own eyes. Randi's books were a wonderful education for me (I still re read them every few years), and the forums were a great compliment which helped me learn how to relate that information to others, and get others thinking for themselves.

So while the forums may or may not have done anything to benefit the JREF as an org specifically (I honestly have no idea either way), I can say that in at least my case it did wonders for their actual mission.

Another great and relevant post.

 

[Orphia Nay]

As has been mentioned, everyone will be emailed, and JREF will continue to link to the site. The only noticeable change (unless we update the software at the start) will be the removal of the JREF logo.

Thanks very much for that.

Can you confirm that you are keeping VBulletin and the existing data?

If so, why is Sharon talking about "streamlining" the forum?

 

[Jodie]

I would prefer the format stay the same, would that change if you move to a new server?

 

[This is The End]

Doing so (updating the software at the start) would make things too rushed. Changing site first and migrating later would earn you lots of time to:

- Prepare/adjust migration scripts.
- Test.
- Fix any problems that arise.
- Rinse, repeat, until last step is flawless(-ish).
- Do the switch with minimal downtime and no message loss.

My understanding is that switching servers is urgent, and switching software at the same time is too risky.

When people get a wild hair and want to start to change things it is hard to hold back the urge. Especially when they are newly in charge and want to make it appear that they are working.

 

[manofthesea]

I would prefer the format stay the same, would that change if you move to a new server?

And what of the select group of temperate and logical woos that inspire so much rebuttal and scientific inquiry?

I'm referring to myself and others and not just those who choose to play the role of devil's advocate. [/whistling smilie]

 

[Sticky Fingers]

When people get a wild hair and want to start to change things it is hard to hold back the urge. Especially when they are newly in charge and want to make it appear that they are working.

.
OTT - Believe it or not in a lot of ways that is what I like.
....that is what leads to great Art and Music and Scientific discoveries.

Sticky...? If I move to a new house will there be someone there to.......

I just don't wanna see the present crew given two weeks notice.
There is just toooo much experience there to see it happen.

But changes in the new site?
I welcome it.

I've been on countless other sites that stay the same year after year after year...

Will any changes if put in work out?
don't know.
But the longstory short is we are cutting ties with Randi and bringing in fresh blood.
Whoever it is.
Darat and others in some ways had their hands tied.
I'm hoping the site is going to be better then it was before.
What else can you hope for?

 

[RemieV]

I can see how to make it less sprawling and more streamlined.

Users submit their ideas for OPs to, say, a JREF intern who then reviews them and posts the ones that they think will give actual value for discussion. Celebrity guests writers can create content as well, and there can be skeptical celebrity AMAs.

Moderate all threads and only let posts through that have to do with the actual discussion.

Reduce the number of subforums.

Tighten the 'on-topic' rule.

This is thinking as a brand, not a community. They are very different things.

To give an example, I'm working on promotion for a novel. One thing the author wanted to do was donate a percentage of proceeds to a well-known mental health charity.

I contacted the charity and asked how to go about setting such a thing up.

They wrote back and said, sorry, we do not have the resources to read every novel that people want to donate proceeds from, and we can't allow you to put our name or logo on something that doesn't fit with our brand, and we also can't promote something we don't believe in.

I wrote back again and said he wasn't offering in order to get free promotion from you. He just wants to hand you money (hopefully a lot). Your organization name and logo would not be on the cover. Your organization would only be mentioned on the web site, where we would hope to link to you in case people who visit have actual mental health issues and are looking for support. I even offered to say, on the site, that the novel is not endorsed in any way by this charity.

Their communications team is talking it over to see if even THAT is a possibility.

What the public thinks of non-profits matters. What the public thinks they support matters. The style of communication the non-profit endorses matters.

Now, tell me, in the real world, is having the name of your charitable organization plastered all over a site that frequently mentions sex with goats a GOOD thing?

We behave like off-hours Del Mar TAM. Which is great and all. It has its place. But there is a reason that the JREF isn't hanging a banner over the Del Mar when everyone is hanging out there. Their forum, if it is intended to further their brand, should be like actual TAM.

I'm not saying we should change this forum to that one or anything, but really, what is the problem with severing ties and letting the JREF continue its mission in the way that works to meet their goals?

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Judging by what I've seen in this thread, the JREF could do better than turning the forum over to icerat. Mais c'est la vie--

You know, this bashing of icerat stinks. He stepped up and volunteered time, staff and money to help us keep a forum which is quickly headed for the trash heap. Some people here want to incessantly bitch and moan about not contributing a couple of dollars or not having their email transferred (even though it has probably been sold all over the world from using it elsewhere.) It is rude to be so negative. Didn't anyone ever teach you guys if you don't have something nice to say to keep quiet?

 

[Totovader]

I can see how to make it less sprawling and more streamlined.

Users submit their ideas for OPs to, say, a JREF intern who then reviews them and posts the ones that they think will give actual value for discussion. Celebrity guests writers can create content as well, and there can be skeptical celebrity AMAs.

Moderate all threads and only let posts through that have to do with the actual discussion.

Reduce the number of subforums.

Tighten the 'on-topic' rule.

This is thinking as a brand, not a community. They are very different things.

To give an example, I'm working on promotion for a novel. One thing the author wanted to do was donate a percentage of proceeds to a well-known mental health charity.

I contacted the charity and asked how to go about setting such a thing up.

They wrote back and said, sorry, we do not have the resources to read every novel that people want to donate proceeds from, and we can't allow you to put our name or logo on something that doesn't fit with our brand, and we also can't promote something we don't believe in.

I wrote back again and said he wasn't offering in order to get free promotion from you. He just wants to hand you money (hopefully a lot). Your organization name and logo would not be on the cover. Your organization would only be mentioned on the web site, where we would hope to link to you in case people who visit have actual mental health issues and are looking for support. I even offered to say, on the site, that the novel is not endorsed in any way by this charity.

Their communications team is talking it over to see if even THAT is a possibility.

What the public thinks of non-profits matters. What the public thinks they support matters. The style of communication the non-profit endorses matters.

Now, tell me, in the real world, is having the name of your charitable organization plastered all over a site that frequently mentions sex with goats a GOOD thing?

We behave like off-hours Del Mar TAM. Which is great and all. It has its place. But there is a reason that the JREF isn't hanging a banner over the Del Mar when everyone is hanging out there. Their forum, if it is intended to further their brand, should be like actual TAM.

I'm not saying we should change this forum to that one or anything, but really, what is the problem with severing ties and letting the JREF continue its mission in the way that works to meet their goals?

I thought that's what JREF is trying to go for when it asked for ways to shrink the forum... but honestly, if you're going to promote discussion of skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way... you're gonna end up with some goat sex.

I personally loathe how much attention the humor and other subforums get, but I'd rather be part of that lively community than one which is too strictly enforced. Is anyone really comfortable with that level of "censorship" (using the term loosely)?

Maybe it's just my need to be free.

On the topic of libertarianism...

 

[lionking]

You know, this bashing of icerat stinks. He stepped up and volunteered time, staff and money to help us keep a forum which is quickly headed for the trash heap. Some people here want to incessantly bitch and moan about not contributing a couple of dollars or not having their email transferred (even though it has probably been sold all over the world from using it elsewhere.) It is rude to be so negative. Didn't anyone ever teach you guys if you don't have something nice to say to keep quiet?

I don't think anyone is objecting to icerat offering technical assistance. Good on him. I'm objecting to the forum seemingly being handed over to him. With no communication to the people who have been running the forum, or to membership generally. A corner shop wouldn't operate in this manner.

That's what stinks.

 

[RemieV]

I thought that's what JREF is trying to go for when it asked for ways to shrink the forum... but honestly, if you're going to promote discussion of skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way... you're gonna end up with some goat sex.

I personally loathe how much attention the humor and other subforums get, but I'd rather be part of that lively community than one which is too strictly enforced. Is anyone really comfortable with that level of "censorship" (using the term loosely)?

Maybe it's just my need to be free.

On the topic of libertarianism...

Goat sex isn't a discussion of skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal, or science.

There are ways to make that a lively forum, though. But it would be like a structured debate team. Structured debate can be lively, there are just a lot of rules.

You could hand-pick mediums to be part of the discussion - MDC applicants, for instance. If you moderated the conversation, that would BE an interesting discussion, and would do the same thing that people are claiming the forum currently does - give reference material for individuals simply seeking more information on a topic, and being able to see one side's arguments pitted against another's.

But for that to be successful, yeah, you have to tighten up the reins. Go into the MDC subforum sometime and take a look at how many applicants were told to seek mental help. That doesn't even qualify as a lively discussion.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I don't think anyone is objecting to icerat offering technical assistance. Good on him. I'm objecting to the forum seemingly being handed over to him. With no communication to the people who have been running the forum, or to membership generally. A corner shop wouldn't operate in this manner.

That's what stinks.

I completely agree JREF's treatment of forumites has been downright shameful. I also agree communication from them has been even worse. None of that appears to be the fault of icerat though.

 

[This is The End]

If so, why is Sharon talking about "streamlining" the forum?

Myriad has a very good guess about what that meant:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10156950#post10156950

 

[This is The End]

OTT - change is inevitable.

Not exactly true.

But suggestions please?

That is easy.

Do not fix things that are not broken.

Do not go looking for things to do just for the sake of making it look like you doing something.

Even top CEOs do not get that simple fact. Look at some of the history of Yahoo and eBay for classic examples.

 

[This is The End]

You know, this bashing of icerat stinks.

Yeah well pyramid schemes killed my father. Consider me biased and grudged.

Either way, most people are talking about what the sudden decision from several days ago (that has seemingly been walked back) represented, not about icerat in particular:

But in some other countries it is worse. It is actually illegal to be either of those things and you can lose your life.

No one is claiming that icerat would blackmail someone. What people are claiming is that the JREF did not give two ***** about the possibility.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I don't think anyone is objecting to icerat offering technical assistance. Good on him. I'm objecting to the forum seemingly being handed over to him. With no communication to the people who have been running the forum, or to membership generally. A corner shop wouldn't operate in this manner.

That's what stinks.

But the long and short is the wheels are in motion.
Whether anyone here likes it or not.
If someone has an "in" with Randi or someone high up in the JREF.
Then by all means go for it.
But considering Darat and Lisa Simpson and Locknar and LashL appear to
be out of the decision making process............
Well I am assuming that goes for us regulars and all the bitching and moaning
isn't gonna change some of the fundamental decisions that have been made.

so maybe we can at least offer some suggestions on how we want the..new...forum
to be run.

 

[sadhatter]

You know, what i would like is a blunt, straightforward answer to the reasons as to why this is happening. We are are grown folks, I'm sure we can take it. The use off very vague statements concerning the situation, is not what i would expect of the jref.

 

[lionking]

so maybe we can at least offer some suggestions on how we want the..new...forum
to be run.

And that's what I've been doing. Calling for a process and timeline to be articulated, and consulting and asking for feedback from the people who constitute this forum. Asking for an outline of the type of person who is expected to take over the forum (which needs to be more than the first person to put his hand up)

Some seem to be saying "it's in icerat's hands, trust him". Really?

I knew a lot about Randi before I joined. I know nothing about icerat. As I said, I'm happy with him providing technical assistance, but not running the forum without knowing a lot more. Call it whinging if you want. I don't care.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

You know, what i would like is a blunt, straightforward answer to the reasons as to why this is happening. We are are grown folks, I'm sure we can take it. The use off very vague statements concerning the situation, is not what i would expect of the jref.

Well the long and short is.... was this ever really Randi's forum.?
Yeah it appears he put his name to it...
When did the TAM start?
The website appears to have sprung up in 2001.
Was it for exposure?
Hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

But he doesn't care about this place.
Now.
The Brass at the JREF doesn't either.
That is all that matters.
the plug could be pulled in 5 minutes.

And I don't think people really understand that yet.
This is nothing to them.
I feel bad for Darat and the admins and mods past and present.....
But no one else is 'owed" anything.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Not sure I follow--Why should icerat have any access to, or control over, my personal info? He's just some guy heading up a new forum. I gave my info to the JREF. They have no business giving, selling, or transferring it to anyone. I hope I haven't misplaced my trust.

BTW, it seems that I recall providing an email address at some point or another, though that may have been before the info was "lost" (not implying anything nefarious by the scare quotes-- Just using them to note that the info wasn't so much lost as stored beyond reach--). Regardless, I don't want any of my info transferred, so I'm going on the record.

Hire a lawyer.