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Future of the Forum

lionking said:
Words have meanings. Sharon lied about the nature of Darat's emails and I now have no respect for her. To hell with the JREF.
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Sharon may well have been lied to, so there's still some wiggle room. I am curious to see how she handles this development in her next post.
 
lionking said:
Words have meanings. Sharon lied about the nature of Darat's emails and I now have no respect for her. To hell with the JREF.
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You're assuming Darat published everything.

Has the recent sentencing of a prominent skeptic taught us nothing?
 
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Folks - my emails make it clear that I was pissed off, but that's water under the bridge and my personal feelings shouldn't harm any attempts to retain the forum pretty much "as is" just not under the control of the JREF. In the end it boils down to the simple fact that I don't want the forum to disappear.

I will be helping the folk trying to take over the running and ownership of the Forum and I hope that gives some reassurance to members especially that any privacy concerns will be addressed before any change of ownership. Privacy and confidentiality is something I've always treated with the utmost seriousness.

I've worked with a lot of the folk who are now trying to save things (mod team and the like) so I know they are also sincere in their wishes for the forum to continue, and the "newbies" involved seem to me to be as passionate about securing the future of the forum as everyone else is.

I'm certain as I can be of anything that it is not going to be plain sailing from here on in and there will be further ..er... discussions but I do now think there is a real chance the forum can be transitioned without losing a lot of what has made it work for a long time - that is us members. I think that a lot more will be done from now on to communicate with everyone involved and by that I mean again us members.

I changed my signature last night... it seemed very apt somehow.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why should you be exempted from that calculation? JREF has to face that calculation, and you expect them to come down in your favor. You expect that they will decide that it is actually really worth it (because you want it, not because they want it) and that they are able to afford it (so that you don't have to). You want JREF to provide the forum to you as a service out of the goodness of their hearts, regardless of whether the members here comport themselves in a fashion which supports JREF's larger vision or not, and regardless of whether the behavior of members on this board reinforces their brand or in fact detracts from it.

JREF as an organization has every right to seek brand cohesion. Any reasonably sane organization should do so - to fail to do so severely limits the ability to achieve the organization's mission. Many of the members here take advantage of JREF's good nature, with little consideration for the mission of the organization. We're here just because it's fun and we like the community.

Why is our fun and feeling of community more important than JREF's organizational objectives?

What I suggest is a compromise. It won't benefit everyone who posts here - some will most assuredly leave. In truth, I'll be one of them, because I'm not a big contributor to JREF's overall vision. But there are many posters here who ARE. They're part of the community that JREF actually depends on as a community-driven organization, and that JREF needs in order to have a successful brand.

If you're one of the ones who leaves when there's a price put on membership here... well, too bad. You're probably not part of the community that JREF needs to retain to keep it's brand whole.

And that's okay.
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Congrats. You just made it sound as if people who would not be capable of affording a potential fee are part of the peasant underclass and that the educational part of the foundation should only be available to those who can pay. You also managed to make it sound as if only people of means have a possible knowledge of science or tech or any of the many subjects discussed here.

Yes, the JREF have a right to protect their brand, but you seem to forget that the E stands for EDUCATION not exclusivity.

It has been part of the foundations mission statement, as I understand it, from as long as I have been a member of this board to educate EVERYONE, not just those who can afford it.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Why should you be exempted from that calculation? JREF has to face that calculation, and you expect them to come down in your favor. You expect that they will decide that it is actually really worth it (because you want it, not because they want it) and that they are able to afford it (so that you don't have to). You want JREF to provide the forum to you as a service out of the goodness of their hearts, regardless of whether the members here comport themselves in a fashion which supports JREF's larger vision or not, and regardless of whether the behavior of members on this board reinforces their brand or in fact detracts from it.

JREF as an organization has every right to seek brand cohesion. Any reasonably sane organization should do so - to fail to do so severely limits the ability to achieve the organization's mission. Many of the members here take advantage of JREF's good nature, with little consideration for the mission of the organization. We're here just because it's fun and we like the community.

Why is our fun and feeling of community more important than JREF's organizational objectives?

What I suggest is a compromise. It won't benefit everyone who posts here - some will most assuredly leave. In truth, I'll be one of them, because I'm not a big contributor to JREF's overall vision. But there are many posters here who ARE. They're part of the community that JREF actually depends on as a community-driven organization, and that JREF needs in order to have a successful brand.

If you're one of the ones who leaves when there's a price put on membership here... well, too bad. You're probably not part of the community that JREF needs to retain to keep it's brand whole.

And that's okay.
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Actually in no way I wanted exception, nor expected something. It would be mostly dead and useless. Very small "community" with no real sense, because all of them would be only people who could afford it and I doubt it would be really nice.

Goals destroyed before there could be even attempt to reach them.

I wouldn't first nor last to leave, but then there would be zero reasons to stay and JREF would have no community to speak of. There would be nothing, just barren paid forum.

Something tells me, you didn't actually understand magnitude of problem your proposal would create.

ETA: Sigh. I still can't express properly what I want to state. Looks like The Fire wrote missing part.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Why should you be exempted from that calculation? JREF has to face that calculation, and you expect them to come down in your favor. You expect that they will decide that it is actually really worth it (because you want it, not because they want it) and that they are able to afford it (so that you don't have to). You want JREF to provide the forum to you as a service out of the goodness of their hearts, regardless of whether the members here comport themselves in a fashion which supports JREF's larger vision or not, and regardless of whether the behavior of members on this board reinforces their brand or in fact detracts from it.

JREF as an organization has every right to seek brand cohesion. Any reasonably sane organization should do so - to fail to do so severely limits the ability to achieve the organization's mission. Many of the members here take advantage of JREF's good nature, with little consideration for the mission of the organization. We're here just because it's fun and we like the community.

Why is our fun and feeling of community more important than JREF's organizational objectives?

What I suggest is a compromise. It won't benefit everyone who posts here - some will most assuredly leave. In truth, I'll be one of them, because I'm not a big contributor to JREF's overall vision. But there are many posters here who ARE. They're part of the community that JREF actually depends on as a community-driven organization, and that JREF needs in order to have a successful brand.

If you're one of the ones who leaves when there's a price put on membership here... well, too bad. You're probably not part of the community that JREF needs to retain to keep it's brand whole.

And that's okay.
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SO let's charge a fee to see that only "The Right People" join the forum?
Terrible idea."
 
Klimax said:
Actually in no way I wanted exception, nor expected something. It would be mostly dead and useless. Very small "community" with no real sense, because all of them would be only people who could afford it and I doubt it would be really nice.

Goals destroyed before there could be even attempt to reach them.

I wouldn't first nor last to leave, but then there would be zero reasons to stay and JREF would have no community to speak of. There would be nothing, just barren paid forum.

Something tells me, you didn't actually understand magnitude of problem your proposal would create.
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100% agreed.
If you need to charge a fee to keep a forum going, the battle has already been lost.
But what is worse is the idea to charge a fee to make sure only "the Right People" can post.
 
The_Fire said:
Congrats. You just made it sound as if people who would not be capable of affording a potential fee are part of the peasant underclass and that the educational part of the foundation should only be available to those who can pay. You also managed to make it sound as if only people of means have a possible knowledge of science or tech or any of the many subjects discussed here.

Yes, the JREF have a right to protect their brand, but you seem to forget that the E stands for EDUCATION not exclusivity.

It has been part of the foundations mission statement, as I understand it, from as long as I have been a member of this board to educate EVERYONE, not just those who can afford it.
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Thank you The Fire. It's really important to understand that the unconvinced need to be able to wander in here, or you just wind up with a backscratching club. That way lies stagnancy and death.
 
I think too many people are sniffing conspiracy and nastiness where there is only confusion and miscommunication.
Yes, Darat has a right to be angry . I can tell he's angry because there are typos and grammatical mistakes in those emails, which by Darat standards implies that his head had swollen up, turned red and steam was billowing from his ears like Tom the cat when Jerry hit him on the head with an anvil.

But Darat isn't calling conspiracy. He's calling years of inefficient management, to which Sharon Hill has agreed. He has stepped aside to let the folk who are trying to fix things do so.

Those of us who have not spent over a decade trying to herd the cats involved in running and using the forum might take a leaf from his book.

In any case, we have no option. I have no choice but to take the word of Jeff Wagg (whose word I do take), that Sharon et al are doing their best. Even if Jeff is wrong and they are actually demons incarnate plotting the end of the world, I still have no choice.
So I will await events. I may have a beer.

In fact, I will have a beer.
 
I think Emily is only meaning if the forum was going to stay with the JREF, and she is to a large extent correct that would be an approach that would result in a forum much more closely aligned with the JREF mission.

But it ain't staying with the JREF so I think this is more an interesting thing to discuss rather than having direct bearing on the new place. Mind you ideas like Emily's will have to be considered because the new-forum will need to raise money somehow.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Simple solution: Start charging a not-insignificant annual membership fee for your forum. The fair-weather posters will drop like flies, and those who share JREF's vision get to retain their home. You get a more consistent posting narrative, and most likely you get higher buy-in for the brand that you want JREF to be.

And you do it without alienating the actual consumers of your brand. Because at the end of the day, a large portion of posters on this forum ARE your consumers. They're the people that JREF's brand is founded on. And by kicking them to the curb with such little consideration, you're betraying the brand promise that you're trying so hard to build. You'll fail before you're even out the door. You can't be a respected brand if the cornerstone of your reputation - your loyal consumers - are betrayed from day one of your positioning.

You cannot build a brand without consumers. Right now, you are betraying the very consumers on which your brand is founded, and you're damaging the community on which you depend.
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The reason cited by posters that the JREF should want to keep the forum, though, is because of its potential value as an educational resource. For instance, the reason the 'no smut, no cursing' rules are so strict is because an elementary school teacher who was friends with Randi went to him and said that he had tried to use the JREF Forums in the classroom, but couldn't because of the cursing and dirty talk, and was forced to block the site at the school.

If the reason to have it at all is that it's an educational resource, then it has to be open. How is that stumbling ghost hunter that we occasionally have great conversations with going to find their way here to discuss at all if they have to pay to get in the door?

In order to be a good educational resource, the forum must both conform to the JREF brand and either raise funds or be an open educational tool. A real one - not one where we say we are, and if you open up any one of these threads and look through all of five posts you see one poster creatively calling another one stupid.

The setup you're suggesting is conducive to a community, and that's all. Which is great and everything. Communities are nice. Fortunately, communities don't need to have branding. So really, that's an argument for moving the forum, not one against it.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why should you be exempted from that calculation? JREF has to face that calculation, and you expect them to come down in your favor. You expect that they will decide that it is actually really worth it (because you want it, not because they want it) and that they are able to afford it (so that you don't have to). You want JREF to provide the forum to you as a service out of the goodness of their hearts, regardless of whether the members here comport themselves in a fashion which supports JREF's larger vision or not, and regardless of whether the behavior of members on this board reinforces their brand or in fact detracts from it.

JREF as an organization has every right to seek brand cohesion. Any reasonably sane organization should do so - to fail to do so severely limits the ability to achieve the organization's mission. Many of the members here take advantage of JREF's good nature, with little consideration for the mission of the organization. We're here just because it's fun and we like the community.

Why is our fun and feeling of community more important than JREF's organizational objectives?

What I suggest is a compromise. It won't benefit everyone who posts here - some will most assuredly leave. In truth, I'll be one of them, because I'm not a big contributor to JREF's overall vision. But there are many posters here who ARE. They're part of the community that JREF actually depends on as a community-driven organization, and that JREF needs in order to have a successful brand.

If you're one of the ones who leaves when there's a price put on membership here... well, too bad. You're probably not part of the community that JREF needs to retain to keep it's brand whole.

And that's okay.
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Again, it's a forum, for ****'s sake. Apparently it's been running for years without any work from them, so it mustn't be costing them much.
 
asydhouse said:
I can't afford to pay. If I could I would. But as with all such things, if you exclude those who can't pay, you skew the population and steal a voice from the underclass, which is the opposite of educational.

To me, the JREF is a barely visible addendum to the forum. The intelligence and level of knowledge and experience, not to mention critical thinking skills, of so many people on this forum is an education in itself, and it seems obvious to me it is a far more accessible and widespread influence on society than whatever else JREF may be doing.

I can barely comprehend the short-sightedness of the folks who have allowed this situation to arrive like this, and the crassness of their treatment of Darat et al, not to mention the hoi polloi like myself.

But equally I can't understand the antagonism of some commenters in this thread towards icerat and the others who seem to me to be simply trying to rescue the vessel from the rising muddy flood which could swallow this forum any day now, leaving us all adrift like so much jetsam from the cold shouldering ship of ageing fat white men* as they sail off into their imagined land of the future without us.

**** 'em, I say. This forum is our forum, and it's where the wealth remains. Please keep it going, folks!


* ETA: that was just a symbolic representation of them as out of touch, using a cliche as a poetic conceit. I've no idea how old or what sex or race the JREF top dogs are. This is just how they've behaved: like a bad cliche.
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Emily was continuing a conversation with me about why the JREF should want to have their brand on the forum. These things aren't actually happening, or even being considered.

For the bolded part, that isn't really true. In fact, it's the opposite. The JREF proper is doing a great number of things that never actually get mentioned on the forum. You'd have to be at TAM or be a member of the JREF itself to see what their goals are and how they are currently achieving them. The forum just isn't involved in any of that. We are separate entities. So, from here, we seem to be the majority of the JREF. Not from there. Again, forumites make up a tiny, tiny percentage of TAM attendees; a tiny percentage of JREF donors. They will function just fine without us, and since the TAM attendance continually grows, they appear to be marketing somewhere, and wherever it is, it's working.
 
Belz... said:
Again, it's a forum, for ****'s sake. Apparently it's been running for years without any work from them, so it mustn't be costing them much.
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Emily's post isn't about financial cost. It's about branding, and whether or not we fit with the JREF's goals and help to achieve them, or hurt their cause.
 
Darat said:
I think Emily is only meaning if the forum was going to stay with the JREF, and she is to a large extent correct that would be an approach that would result in a forum much more closely aligned with the JREF mission.

But it ain't staying with the JREF so I think this is more an interesting thing to discuss rather than having direct bearing on the new place. Mind you ideas like Emily's will have to be considered because the new-forum will need to raise money somehow.
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I can see the need for raising fund, however a "Not insignificant" amount of money would effectively shut out a lot of people. 1 dollar a month? Not a problem for most people (including me). 100 dollars? OUCH!

I would propose a sliding scale consisting of 3 types of accounts: Free accounts (students and those who cant afford to pay for some reason or the other) with a possible adverts running as well to recover some of the cost on those. 1 dollar acounts: For those who have some means, but not a lot and wants to contribute. Donation accounts: People who donate larger amounts (I saw someone offer up a C-note(?) towards the start-up phase).

The last one could come with some sort of board acknowledgement. If combined with a charity type of status for the board/organisation running it, it could also carry out further advantages to the donators.

The 1-dollar accounts alone has the potential to carry the costs of the boards with a surplus for "hard times" or towards the legal support fund that probably going to be needed.
 
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