Future of the Forum

[Klimax]

This thread, about three pages back.

No idea WTF is happening there or who is in right and who is in wrong.

It sounds like a single consistent story to me, no contradiction.

- Someone with admin rights starts to play with the administrator accounts rights.
- When that situation is detected, the forum is closed for an hour or so, to demote all admins and leave only one trusted person with admin rights (Rick Adams), fixing permissions etc.
- As a result, the admins get pissed off for being demoted without warning.

No "just somebody". It was somebody from JREF, because he used JREF account to play with stuff. There was apparently no communication about this prior to Event.

And no, timeline by Sharon(or JREF) is inconsistent with posts and status of Admins as visible at the time.

A real date of birth was only ever required for about 6 weeks 8 years ago. The DOB field is like all the other optional profile fields. Whether your DOB appears is a user option, on new accounts it defaults to not sharing it.

I registered in 2011 and was required to provide a DOB as part of registration, so that is NOT the case.

It might have been decided not to require it but such a decision certainly was not implemented.

IIRC Darat said, forum software itself required it. When I registered there was already note, that DOB is optional from FM perspective and can be set to anything.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It was probably more like a minute and a huff.

Reported

 

[This is The End]

I am also sorry that Darat will not remain; as far as I could determine, he carried out a difficult job in a responsible manner.

Seconded.

I would like to plead for Darat to reconcider.

Darat did a very good job as far as I am concerned. (Especially considering he was a volenteer.)

I would like to say that I disagreed with Darat on a few basic things. Most were issues of clarity, some were issues of information, and very rarely (two specific situations in fact) issues of bias (being a human being, only showing bias a couple times over a decade is damn good!). I admit that those first two issues were often due to context, but sometimes it clearly wasn't and context was called upon seemingly as an excuse.

So I am not saying Darat was perfect. But that does not mean Darat did not do an exemplary job a good majority of the time. He did.

We very much need Darat back and involved as soon as ******* possible. We also need Jeff involved when he is ready. (And to be clear, I am not forgetting the other mods and admins as well.)

I realize I got into a huff about the software issue, but that does not matter one iota compared to the fact that we need Darat on board. We need the MA entirely, it is the rock that holds the forum together, and that MA includes Darat.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The forum is not the database maintained by the JREF. The forum is its people.

No, it's the database. I pretty much consider the rest of you to be numbers.

 

[jsfisher]

It sounds like a single consistent story to me, no contradiction.

- Someone with admin rights starts to play with the administrator accounts rights.
- When that situation is detected, the forum is closed for an hour or so, to demote all admins and leave only one trusted person with admin rights (Rick Adams), fixing permissions etc.
- As a result, the admins get pissed off for being demoted without warning.

You meant to say six and a half hours or so. Other than that, your post is completely accurate...except for the parts that aren't, of course.

 

[Darat]

I registered in 2011 and was required to provide a DOB as part of registration, so that is NOT the case.

It might have been decided not to require it but such a decision certainly was not implemented.

A screen grab of the registration screen as it has been for many a year:

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Im only known in the ct and politics section where I spent most if my time. I dont attend any other forums besides one I run myself (totaly different theme from this one) and here... the only other site I frequent is deviantart so if anyone still feels like finding me pm me and ill link you to my profile there. Otherwise I wish the site good luck and ill be around as long as the site is. And may the stress factor fir s the aff get sorted... definitely not a day maker

Unfortunately ive been there and done that once before on a much smaller scale...

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

May I ask a practical question? Would there be any point in forum members politely emailing JREF asking that the forum be "fixed" as needed, but retained as part of the JREF mission? Would it matter if JREF received 2 emails? 200? 2000?

No. The decision is done.

There is other palace intrigue going on at the JREF, the forum being the least of the issues, according to my sources.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As far as personal information goes, I don't even recall what info I provided 13 years ago. I'm sure I gave a "real" name, and maybe a DOB. Whether it was my real DOB, I don't recall. If I gave a real address and email address, both have since changed.

 

[Darat]

My entire sequence of emails to the JREF in regards to this matter in chronological order. The only redactions are my email address and name.

From: ******* [mailto:*****]
Sent: 01 August 2014 20:13
To: sharon@randi.org; D.J. Grothe
Subject: Future of the Forum

HI Sharon

I’m “Darat” from the Forum the “Forum moderator” who “has been notified of the situation” I am sorry that our the first communication will be not be very positive..

I do not mince my words so I’ll just come out with it: I have not been informed and your starting this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10144684#post10144684, and not even having the courtesy to send me a PM or email to tell me you were going to post it, or even afterwards to let me know has totally and utterly pissed me off.

I have kept the JREF Forum going through thick and thin for 10 years (and am the longest serving continuous volunteer the JREF has ever had) and to be totally side-lined in this manner by you is very unpleasant and it would seem that as far as you are concerned the value of the many years of work I have put into the Forum is zero.

You may not believe it but I have a very thick skin and very rarely allow my personal feelings to intrude into the running of the Forum (being thick skinned is one of the reasons that I have been able to put up with over a decade of abuse) and I have always strived to ensure that “personalities” never intrude into the running of the Forum. There is no other comparable “skeptic” site or forum that has managed to exist this long without a meltdown, without splits and huge acrimony and damage to the parent organisation (you may want to look into what happened to the Richard Dawkins forum for a very sad case history). But for once I am letting my personal feelings to the surface.

I know from a conversation earlier in the year with D.J. that the JREF does not really see the Forum as an asset especially given the direction the JREF is now taking in regards to its mission and is considering (or may have now decided) severing all ties and leaving the Forum to either die or be taken over. However it would have been common courtesy to at least let me know what was going on instead of me finding out about your posts from several PMs asking me what is going on. It is rather frustrating to only be able to respond with “I’ve no idea as I am not involved.”

Regards

*****

From: *****
Sent: 04 August 2014 21:02
To: 'Sharon Hill'
Subject: RE: Future of the Forum

Hi Sharon

I’m happy to just move on.

I’ve just caught up with the thread you started and exchanged a few PMs with icerat/David.

Can I please ask just to slow it down for a day or two? I’m afraid that what we are going to end up with is chaos and cause bad feelings.

Originally I believed that the plan was to provide the JREF with two choices – either a continuation of the Forum as a JREF Forum BUT entirely self-funding or as the JREF transferring the Forum to a new owner?

Has a decision now been made that it is going to be closed or hived off?

Regards

Hi Sharon

With the various log in problems I’ve not been able to check some things but have had a good spell online tonight and found out we have a major problem and that is the entire mod team are locked out of the Mod & Admin control panels. All the team see:

“Wrong username or password. You have used up your failed login quota! Please wait 15 minutes before trying again. Don't forget that the password is case sensitive. Forgotten your password? Click here!”

Who is looking after this transition?

Regards

Sharon – simply question is D.J. involved in this or not?

And why does the JREF need another admin beyond me for any transition? Which is a role I’ve been doing for 10 years and I am the only one who knows the ins and out of the current configuration of software etc?

From: ***************************
Sent: 05 August 2014 20:27
To: 'Sharon Hill'; '*************
Cc: 'Chip Denman'; 'Rick Adams'
Subject: RE: JREF topics on the forum

Hi

Please be aware that there may be some legal issues about transferring the Forum content to a new entity. And given the number of people who would like nothing more than to cause trouble for the JREF/Randi we should be certain there isn’t anything in the transfer that could be used against the JREF.

The registration agreement regarding content reads as follows:

“Copyright
Any post or article published on the JREF forum by a Member is the copyright of the Member and may not be reproduced, copied or otherwise re-published without the express permission of the Member. By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity. The James Randi Educational Foundation is the copyright holder of the JREF Forum.
“

Whilst that gives license (no pun intended) for the JREF to use the content provided by members does that give the JREF the right to reassign that license?

The registration agreement also defines how the JREF can use personal information supplied by the members (I saw a mention about privacy issues in another email).

“Privacy
The JREF is committed to safeguarding your online privacy and does not sell or share the information you provide during registration with any other organisation. The JREF Forum has a Privacy Statement that can be found in the FAQ.


The privacy policy can be found here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/privacy.htm

The relevant section of the privacy statement is:

With whom your information may be shared.
As a general rule, the JREF will not disclose or share any of your personally identifiable information except if you have given permission or when we believe in good faith that the law requires it.
I’d have thought that was quite clear cut we can’t transfer (encrypted or nor) the personally identifiable details, which could mean email addresses, names, locations and so on?

Cheers

-D

Hi all

I think it is now time for me to step away from the Forum. I’ve looked after the Forum for 10 years because it was the JREF Forum and with that no longer being the case and how I’ve been (recently) treated I’d rather go now with no further bad feelings. I also think that will help create a clear path for the new forum to establish itself as a fresh start with none of the baggage that my name brings with it.

Given there is no access to the vBulletin AdminCP at the moment I can’t make the required changes to my forum title and account permissions so I will add to my signature that I’m no longer the Forum Liaison or have any capacity as an admin until such time that you can access the AdminCP. I will also start deleting and destroying the “official” stuff that I’ve accumulated over the decade, this includes emails and responses I’ve sent, I would feel uncomfortable leaving that in my personal possession given the often sensitive information it contains. This should be completed over the next 24 hours.

Sincerely hope that the transition can be a success, good luck to everyone.

Cheers

David

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

And lose years and years of valuable discussion? I think not......

I don't care about my post counts or join date; I do care that the valuable resources and information contained in the years of discussion on this board might be lost.

But if the alternative is the switch gets turned off, what difference does it really make in the end? People have stated the forum is what it is because of the members. I understand it is what it is also because of the archived data. If we can't keep the archived data, let's at least keep the members together.

(Besides, there are some threads which just repeat the same things over and over! It's not like we can't have the debates all over again.)

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Shockingly vitriolic Darat!.....

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You missed blanking out your name in one of the emails (I already knew it anyhow).

 

[Jeff Wagg]

David, you left out the vitriol. We were promised vitriol.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Has anyone noticed how much faster the forum is running since the admins lost all their rights? Were they weighing it down that much?

 

[Planigale]

Of course the JREF was created in order to educate. However, the organization's plans to educate cannot be accomplished without funding. Therefore, funding is of the utmost importance, because it allows the JREF to educate. That's a chicken-egg argument. It doesn't actually indicate the JREF is "self-serving".

As to the rest, you are forgetting one major thing - the forum is labeled 'JREF' which means the content needs to comply with the JREF's brand (and the JREF *is* a brand). While having a forum liaison to set rules handed down by the JREF allows them to exert some kind of control, rules can't be set for things like tone, style, and content beyond general guidelines like "no smut" and "no cursing". When a believer comes in here, sure, there are some fantastic posters who present well-reasoned arguments and treat the newcomer with respect. There are also a high number who only stop in to snark, bully, etc. That isn't a great branding strategy for an organization concerned with outreach.

The JREF has to be concerned with public perception. Do we put a good face on the JREF? We couldn't even stop ourselves from sniping at a JREF staff member whose intention was to help.

Now, if we were the majority of the JREF - if we all had memberships, and we were all donors - maybe that wouldn't matter. It would certainly offset the damage that we can do. But we don't offer that value. So, explain to me, why would the JREF want to keep the forum?

And again - I wish the JREF had massaged the forum into a better place. It's kind of a free-for-all in here. Lots of snark, lots of infighting, people skirting the rules so that they can still get away with calling other posters stupid like somehow that's a meaningful contribution.

Maybe if we had celebrity AMAs we would put on a better face, or if we had a goal for the forum as a whole we would be united. But let's keep in mind here that the mods had to start up a rule disallowing threads on GUN CONTROL, of all things, because users were starting them only to continue infighting.

And what I'm trying to say is - this is our chance to be united. This is our chance to have opinions and be heard and lead this somewhere other than an internet fight between a tiny population of people over things that are essentially meaningless because we never actually DO anything about them.

I would like to continue a platonic dialogue with you because I think it is a good way to air the issues. The problem is I find you quite convincing. I certainly think that we could do more in terms of being a resource for skeptics.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

David, you left out the vitriol. We were promised vitriol.

And jet packs. And flying cars.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I would like to continue a platonic dialogue with you because I think it is a good way to air the issues. The problem is I find you quite convincing. I certainly think that we could do more in terms of being a resource for skeptics.

This is the exact line that guy in Ireland used on Rebecca on the elevator.

 

[temporalillusion]

David, you left out the vitriol. We were promised vitriol.

No kidding... I'm usually one to give the benefit of the doubt to a fault, but my benefit-of-the-doubt muscle is certainly getting a good workout.

 

[Agatha]

David, you left out the vitriol. We were promised vitriol.

We should band together and complain to the JREF about this broken promise. Oh wait...

Darat, your emails are remarkably free of vitriol. Given your (previous) role as JREF forum liaison, it would seem to me that liaising with you should have been the first priority in all this. It is shocking that this was not done by JREF.

However, done is done. I hope you will not leave entirely, even if you feel you cannot be involved in running the forum.

I've been involved in a forum (handbag.com) disintegrating before; it was deeply unpleasant and long-standing friendships and professional relationships were irrevocably damaged simply because communication was not seen as a priority.