Scotland - Police routinely armed

[The Don]

Outside Northern Ireland, the police forces (services ?) in the UK have not been routinely armed with guns for many decades now. There are specialist firearms units but the bobby on the beat does not carry a firearm.

This has now changed in Scotland:

In a little-noticed move, a small number of police officers are now routinely carrying sidearms while on patrol in much of Scotland - the first in the UK outside Northern Ireland to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28656324

I wonder if this is the end of policing by consent.

I wonder if this will be reversed in the event that Scotland becomes independent.

 

[Information Analyst]

It's certainly an interesting development, but potentially misleading, given that it only applies to 275 officers out of the entire force of 17,318.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I suspect they are authorised firearms officers who have been given permission to carry on duty more than anything else, especially if they are patrolling high crime areas.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

A decade or so ago, there were armed police patrols on certain estates in Nottingham in response to gun crime in the area. Im not sure how long that lasted.

 

[Craig B]

Outside Northern Ireland, the police forces (services ?) in the UK have not been routinely armed with guns for many decades now. There are specialist firearms units but the bobby on the beat does not carry a firearm.

This has now changed in Scotland:

Seemingly it's not so as regards the average "bobby on the beat". They still don't carry weapons, unless they're arms specialists. Nonetheless I don't like this development.

 

[malicus]

I was intrigued to see the pic of armed officers in Inverness - a place noted in the story as a low crime area. I was therefore surprised to learn that last year there were over 100 armed officer deployments in the Highlands alone last year.

It obviously makes sense to someone to have these specialist officers performing other police work but ready to go at the drop of a hat.

 

[geni]

I suspect they are authorised firearms officers who have been given permission to carry on duty more than anything else, especially if they are patrolling high crime areas.

I suggest you read the friendly article.

 

[Giz]

I wonder if this is the end of policing by consent.

"Policing by consent" is one of those catchphrases often used in the UK but what does it actually mean?

Wiki definition:
"They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of those fellow citizens. "Policing by consent" indicates that the legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so."

I note that this would seem to be applicable to just about any democracy. For example, in the USA (with armed police and where I've never heard "policing by consent") the police definitely have the consent of society in general to perform their role (individual criminals may demur).

What then is the value of the phrase nowadays?

 

[Skepticemea]

It obviously makes sense to someone to have these specialist officers performing other police work but ready to go at the drop of a hat.

I think there should be a more urgent requirement for officers to don firearms than someone fumbling their heargear.

I kind of agree with the dog handler's response about doing other tasks but leaving the slavering 90lb attack dog out of the way.

 

[Information Analyst]

I suspect they are authorised firearms officers who have been given permission to carry on duty more than anything else,

Yes.

especially if they are patrolling high crime areas.

No.

 

[Darat]

Outside Northern Ireland, the police forces (services ?) in the UK have not been routinely armed with guns for many decades now. There are specialist firearms units but the bobby on the beat does not carry a firearm.

This has now changed in Scotland:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28656324

I wonder if this is the end of policing by consent.

I wonder if this will be reversed in the event that Scotland becomes independent.

Why - wouldn't this already fall under the remit if the current Scottish government?

 

[Information Analyst]

A decade or so ago, there were armed police patrols on certain estates in Nottingham in response to gun crime in the area. Im not sure how long that lasted.

IIRC it was scaled back after a few months. There was something similar back in the 1990s when some of Manchester's ne'er do wells - whose antics spawned the "Gunchester" label - were looking to extended their influence out into nightclubs in Chester. The Cheshire Constabulary got wind of this and posted armed response vehicles outside the threatened clubs, with officers with MP5SFs patrolling the street. The result was that the Manchester faces turned up a couple of times, took one look at the welcoming committees, and then either drove off straight away or studiously behaved themselves inside the clubs. After a few months, the polcie were able to scale back and then withdraw these measures completely.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

From wikipedia

In October 2000, Nottinghamshire Police introduced regular armed patrols to the St Ann's and Meadows estates in Nottingham, in response to fourteen drug-related shootings in the two areas in the previous year.[9] Although the measure was not intended to be permanent, patrols were stepped up in the autumn of 2001 after further shootings,[10] after which the firearms crime declined dramatically.

 

[The Don]

Why - wouldn't this already fall under the remit if the current Scottish government?

One of the suggestions about an independent Scotland is that it will be free to fly as a more socialist country. Within the spectrum of UK politics, the right wing tend to be more keen on arming the police. For Scotland to have armed police running around would seem to be counter to this overall picture.

 

[Darat]

One of the suggestions about an independent Scotland is that it will be free to fly as a more socialist country. Within the spectrum of UK politics, the right wing tend to be more keen on arming the police. For Scotland to have armed police running around would seem to be counter to this overall picture.

But policing is already a devolved matter and since the SNP (the main proponents of the "more socialist" in Scotland) is the party of governance in Scotland at the moment why would this change?

 

[Soapy Sam]

The argument of the polis seems to be that while all police services in the UK have armed specialists, the weapons themselves were generally kept under lock and key in police stations.
Because forces like Grampian and Highland are thinly spread over wide territories, it might be impracticable to return to base to collect a weapon, so it became routine to carry guns in some vehicles. These would not be carried by an officer unless and until necessary.
With the unification of the regional forces into "Police Scotland", this policy has extended across the country.

I have my doubts that this was ever true. Incidents requiring an armed response are rare in rural areas, (although guns are actually commoner there), because population is low.
The cities are the places gun crime is more common, just because that's where crime is more common.

I feel this is a misguided policy. The police can only operate with the cooperation of the community. Most people are unused to seeing armed police, are startled when they do and respond by distancing themselves (literally and metaphorically) from whatever is going on.

Me, too.

 

[Craig B]

IIRC it was scaled back after a few months. There was something similar back in the 1990s when some of Manchester's ne'er do wells - whose antics spawned the "Gunchester" label - were looking to extended their influence out into nightclubs in Chester.

Maybe so, but we're talking about Inverness here. I think we'll wait a while before they have to start calling the place "Gunverness".

 

[malicus]

The argument of the polis seems to be that while all police services in the UK have armed specialists, the weapons themselves were generally kept under lock and key in police stations.
Because forces like Grampian and Highland are thinly spread over wide territories, it might be impracticable to return to base to collect a weapon, so it became routine to carry guns in some vehicles. These would not be carried by an officer unless and until necessary.
With the unification of the regional forces into "Police Scotland", this policy has extended across the country.

I have my doubts that this was ever true. Incidents requiring an armed response are rare in rural areas, (although guns are actually commoner there), because population is low.
The cities are the places gun crime is more common, just because that's where crime is more common.

I feel this is a misguided policy. The police can only operate with the cooperation of the community. Most people are unused to seeing armed police, are startled when they do and respond by distancing themselves (literally and metaphorically) from whatever is going on.

Me, too.

Definition of rare? Twice a week last year in the Highlands surprised me.

 

[The Don]

But policing is already a devolved matter and since the SNP (the main proponents of the "more socialist" in Scotland) is the party of governance in Scotland at the moment why would this change?

Then I'm mildly surprised that a party which desires socialist credentials in other areas is so right wing in this case. Perhaps this is the first step towards a fully armed paramilitary police for a newly independent Scotland prior to the coup which results in Comrade Salmond being declared president for life .

 

[malicus]

Then I'm mildly surprised that a party which desires socialist credentials in other areas is so right wing in this case. Perhaps this is the first step towards a fully armed paramilitary police for a newly independent Scotland prior to the coup which results in Comrade Salmond being declared president for life .

Wooahhhhh..............shhhhhhhh.......dude keep it down...........