Future of the Forum

[Christian Klippel]

That said -- over the years, the forum has gone belly-up a number of times apparently due to database corruption. In the unlikely event that it's super-easy to switch the database from Mysql to Postgres, I would consider this change after the hosting is straightened out.

Plus, suitable hard disks are cheap nowdays, so there is no reason to not put 4 of them in the box to make a RAId5, with three active and one spare drive.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[abaddon]

Sharon has recently joined JREF, but has been posting on the JREF forum since 2007, mostly in Bigfoot threads and other paranormal matters.I think it reasonable to expect she would be aware of the Admin & Mod structure. Her OP comment about "The moderator" may be just shorthand. Let's assume so.

I do not think it reasonable to expect her to have detailed understanding of the forum hard and software, but I'd hope she is in a position to at least find out the details of what hardware the forum uses and to post those data here.
Several opinions by people who seem to understand these things suggested that the problem might be not using a dedicated server.
Sharon says it is a dedicated server. If that is correct, then the solution may be either in software, or in beefing up that server, or adding a second database server.
Beefing it up is only possible if the initial configuration is known.


While there are knowledgable people on the forum they must have two way cooperation to achieve anything. We know the same software runs faster on similar and larger forums. We need to find out why it runs slowly on this one.

I am getting the impression that while not simple, the fix is straightforward. It is a matter of money and applied savoir faire. Both are available and have been for years and yet some obstacle keeps preventing the fix going ahead.

It may be Sharon's role to find out what that obstacle is and remove it.

The term "dedicated server" is supposed to mean a physical box on which resides my stuff and nobody else's.

The rise of the cloud has allowed the evil marketeers to describe things as dedicated which really are not, adding a lot of confusion. There is nothing wrong with this as such and indeed many advantages. You can go to someone like Hostgator (never used them, just a random pick) and for under $15 a month get what they call a dedicated server with unlimited storage and unlimited bandwidth and all the bells and whistles. It sounds like you are getting your own physical box in the server farm, but you are not. You are simply renting a piece of their cloud.

On the projects I am involved with it is a mix: some are happy to rent that piece of cloud.

Some are paranoid and insist on an actual dedicated server. I have one in mind who springs $10k per quarter just for infrastructure. It's justifiable in their case.

Then there are the uber-paranoid who insist on colocation, where they provide their own gear. You would not believe some of the things people insist is placed in server cabinets. The worst I ever saw was a desktop whose PSU had blown. Apparently it was an odd type so the customer bodged a 500W internal power supply onto it...from the outside. Now I only saw it because their tech was in the same server room as I was. I felt sorry for them. I was working on one of our 1u rackmount servers. He was stuck with this beast that had to be occupying at least 8u, and you bet your sweet bippy they were paying for every "u".

 

[icerat]

Fair enough. Did you notice that plenty of folks are willing to volunteer time and materials? But JREF just isn't interested?

It's awesome that icerat is helping. <applause icon goes here> Just make sure that jref isn't then required to signup additional companies to receive the service.

You will however have to introduce friends and family as members monthly if you wish to maintain a membership

 

[quadraginta]

Okay now...how can we twist that very reasonable response into proof of Sharon's complicity in a JREF plot to deceive and disenfranchise us?

Option One: Oh, yeah, Sharon? Well if the JREF really wanted to do anything, why would they appoint someone without any of the requisite technical knowledge? That proves that you're just the patsy for the PTB!

Option Two: Why didn't you tell us from the beginning that you were only part-time? You deliberately led us to believe that you had more power than you do, just more proof that the JREF can't be trusted!

Option Three: You could arrange to send emails to everyone in the forum database, but instead you just start a solitary thread in an area of the forum that most members never even look at...you're obviously not sincere in your desire to 'reach out to the forum membership for help'.

Option Four: Last year, someone else in the JREF failed entirely to respond to an important email that I sent to them, and since you work for the JREF too, you obviously bear the blame for that, and I see no reason to trust you until you rectify that problem!

Shouldn't there be something about lizard people or the Illuminati?

Bilderbergers, at least?

 

[abaddon]

You will however have to introduce friends and family as members monthly if you wish to maintain a membership

And ritually sacrifice them on a stone altar.

FFS this is not difficult to do. Willing volunteers are willingly volunteering.

My inbox overfloweth with people willing to volunteer.

And I'm not even involved.

 

[marplots]

Then there are the uber-paranoid who insist on colocation, where they provide their own gear. You would not believe some of the things people insist is placed in server cabinets. The worst I ever saw was a desktop whose PSU had blown. Apparently it was an odd type so the customer bodged a 500W internal power supply onto it...from the outside. Now I only saw it because their tech was in the same server room as I was. I felt sorry for them. I was working on one of our 1u rackmount servers. He was stuck with this beast that had to be occupying at least 8u, and you bet your sweet bippy they were paying for every "u".

Some of your posts are hard to follow because of the jargon.

Thankfully, Oxford dictionaries had "bippy" - a jocular euphemism for buttocks. But then I had to look up "jocular."

 

[icerat]

Ok,

I've got some hard details on the current server and performance and as most expected it's almost certainly a mySQL bottleneck. I'm pretty confident we can get things up on running well for half the cost JREF is currently paying, and then it's just a matter of $$$ to improve performance even more (SSD vs SATA more cache etc etc).

Put your hand up if you have experience with -

* CentOS
* mySQL
* vbulletin 3.7.7

And are willing to contribute some time.

The current goal would be to move the forum as is to new hardware to stabilise performance, and then at a later date upgrade the forum software itself. Suggestions and experiences on the latter are requested. vBulletin as a project has gone downhill so it will most likely mean migrating to other commercial or opensource forum software. That will mean lots of whining from people who like things the way they are

My current favourite is Xenforo, which was developed by the original vBulletin lead developers. One thing I think is important is native support for different screen sizes (eg cell/tablet). All suggestions appreciated.

The other issue is of course funding. I suspect JREF has little interest in continuing to financially support the forum so we'll have to look at a donor/advertising/whatever model. Again, your input appreciated.

 

[Belz...]

I've got some hard details on the current server and performance and as most expected it's almost certainly a mySQL bottleneck.

Is it normal that forum users are the ones looking into this ?

I suspect JREF has little interest in continuing to financially support the forum so we'll have to look at a donor/advertising/whatever model.

Seems logical. Hopefully we'll get banners for some psychic, somewhere.

 

[SezMe]

Put your hand up if you have experience with -

My hands are down because I don't have the necessary expertise but I just wanted to say "thanks" in advance for all who contribute. I'm happy to be a naive tester if you need one.

That will mean lots of whining from people who like things the way they are

OK, I want to get first in line: I'm really pissed that you are thinking about maybe changing ANYTHING, even if it makes sense and improves everything.

There, just trying to help toughen your hide.

 

[Klimax]

Plus, suitable hard disks are cheap nowdays, so there is no reason to not put 4 of them in the box to make a RAId5, with three active and one spare drive.

Greetings,

Chris

Why not DC3700...

Ok,

I've got some hard details on the current server and performance and as most expected it's almost certainly a mySQL bottleneck. I'm pretty confident we can get things up on running well for half the cost JREF is currently paying, and then it's just a matter of $$$ to improve performance even more (SSD vs SATA more cache etc etc).
...

Looks I was right.

Sadly, areas you listed are not even close to my expertise.

However, I can do various measurement and testing from client side examining stuff as clients see them. (Could be of use for tweaking configuration or use of services)
But this would be of use after initial migration.

===

BTW: Usually forum users don't do this, but exceptions exist... Although community forums could provide examples.

 

[icerat]

Is it normal that forum users are the ones looking into this ?

It's normal that non-profits often have volunteer labour

My company actually offers these kind of services to non-profits and startups in a partnership arrangement, with profit-sharing being a future option if it seems viable.

In this particular case my motivation is purely selfish - I learn too much from too many very smart and knowledgeable people on this forum, so I'm not willing to let it die.

Seems logical. Hopefully we'll get banners for some psychic, somewhere.

I wonder if they're any good at predicting their click through rate?

 

[ctamblyn]

That will mean lots of whining from people who like things the way they are

If one of the changes results in working LaTeX support, I won't whine a bit.

Also, I'd like to add my name to SezMe's as a volunteer tester if this all goes ahead.

 

[Michel H]

The forum is on dedicated hardware that cannot be sustained. A move to new hardware and software is needed. ...

Details, please! It should be clear by now that there are enough people here who could offer specific, constructive advice if furnished with some real information.
...

...

As some informed people have said, it seems like the problems are mostly due to a lack of hardware power. I suggest your next step is to get someone to look up the contract you have with SoftLayer and post both the hardware specifications and the costs in this thread. I can't see anything standing in way of transparency here.
...

Well I got a response that they're collecting names of people offering assistance and it's being passed on to the person with responsibility for the site who will be deciding how to proceed.
...

Let me be clear - I DON'T know the technical issues and I did not know the forum structure. ... I really am just the go-between attempting to solve the problem.

...

Huge thanks to icerat, we are pursuing his offer.

...

Ok,

I've got some hard details on the current server and performance and as most expected it's almost certainly a mySQL bottleneck. I'm pretty confident we can get things up on running well for half the cost JREF is currently paying, and then it's just a matter of $$$ to improve performance even more (SSD vs SATA more cache etc etc).
Put your hand up if you have experience with -

* CentOS
* mySQL
* vbulletin 3.7.7

And are willing to contribute some time.

The current goal would be to move the forum as is to new hardware to stabilise performance, and then at a later date upgrade the forum software itself. Suggestions and experiences on the latter are requested. vBulletin as a project has gone downhill so it will most likely mean migrating to other commercial or opensource forum software. That will mean lots of whining from people who like things the way they are

My current favourite is Xenforo, which was developed by the original vBulletin lead developers. One thing I think is important is native support for different screen sizes (eg cell/tablet). All suggestions appreciated.

The other issue is of course funding. I suspect JREF has little interest in continuing to financially support the forum so we'll have to look at a donor/advertising/whatever model. Again, your input appreciated.

Sounds good, icerat. However, while you say you know some details about the server, you did not reveal many details about it (the server). You said "the current server", so I suppose there is just one (and not a webserver, plus another server for the database). Is this server really a dedicated server, like idoubtit (Sharon) said? Since you seem to be an expert in web hosting, you probably know what a dedicated server is. Could you give full details (including number of cores, RAM and cost) about the server the JREF uses for this forum? (if you know this info). If you don't know it, or you feel you have not been authorized to give this info here, could Sharon convince the technical person in charge of the website to post these details here after a possible authorization has been given? I think this information would be useful to the many knowledgeable people on computers and web hosting who post on this forum, and in this thread, and try to help. I am afraid there is a danger of making a transition to XenForo too soon (with perhaps some loss of data), without having the problem with the hardware fully understood beforehand.

 

[icerat]

Sounds good, icerat. However, while you say you know some details about the server, you did not reveal many details about it (the server). You said "the current server", so I suppose there is just one (and not a webserver, plus another server for the database). Is this server really a dedicated server, like idoubtit (Sharon) said? Since you seem to be an expert in web hosting, you probably know what a dedicated server is. Could you give full details (including number of cores, RAM and cost) about the server the JREF uses for this forum? (if you know this info). If you don't know it, or you feel you have not been authorized to give this info here, could Sharon convince the technical person in charge of the website to post these details here after a possible authorization has been given? I think this information would be useful to the many knowledgeable people on computers and web hosting who post on this forum, and in this thread, and try to help. I am afraid there is a danger of making a transition to XenForo too soon (with, perhaps some loss of data), without having the problem with the hardware fully understood beforehand.

Sharon - any objection to me sharing the hardware and performance data here? I'll redact version info which can be useful to hackers. Current costs I wouldn't publicise if I was JREF, so I won't even ask about that.

 

[marplots]

In this particular case my motivation is purely selfish - I learn too much from too many very smart and knowledgeable people on this forum, so I'm not willing to let it die.

You're welcome.

 

[abaddon]

Ok,

I've got some hard details on the current server and performance and as most expected it's almost certainly a mySQL bottleneck. I'm pretty confident we can get things up on running well for half the cost JREF is currently paying, and then it's just a matter of $$$ to improve performance even more (SSD vs SATA more cache etc etc).

Put your hand up if you have experience with -

* CentOS
* mySQL
* vbulletin 3.7.7

And are willing to contribute some time.

The current goal would be to move the forum as is to new hardware to stabilise performance, and then at a later date upgrade the forum software itself. Suggestions and experiences on the latter are requested. vBulletin as a project has gone downhill so it will most likely mean migrating to other commercial or opensource forum software. That will mean lots of whining from people who like things the way they are

My current favourite is Xenforo, which was developed by the original vBulletin lead developers. One thing I think is important is native support for different screen sizes (eg cell/tablet). All suggestions appreciated.

The other issue is of course funding. I suspect JREF has little interest in continuing to financially support the forum so we'll have to look at a donor/advertising/whatever model. Again, your input appreciated.

I eat SQL for breakfast. I'm in.

 

[newyorkguy]

The problems described are why I hardly post here now, good luck with sorting a solution.

I wondered why. Too bad.

 

[AdMan]

Put your hand up if you have experience with -

My hands are down because I don't have the necessary expertise but I just wanted to say "thanks" in advance for all who contribute. I'm happy to be a naive tester if you need one.

Seconded. Plus I'm happy to donate to a funding effort. I have little doubt that a crowdfunding effort will be able to keep the forum going if it's needed.

 

[icerat]

ugh, performance has been disastrous for me the past half hour ... peak time?

 

[Belz...]

It's normal that non-profits often have volunteer labour

My company actually offers these kind of services to non-profits and startups in a partnership arrangement, with profit-sharing being a future option if it seems viable.

Yes but I assumed that, since the JREF has a forum, it has people that take care of it and can identify problems.